Listen now (59 min) | My guest this week is the distinguished physicist Sylvester “Jim” Gates. Jim was my colleague at Brown for years (he’s now at the University of Maryland), and we’re both alumni of MIT. Jim has made pathbreaking contributions to areas of physics that laymen like me can barely understand—he’s a deep, deep guy. He’s also got some thoughts on race and diversity in the sciences that give us an opportunity for some friendly debate.
I was particularly struck by Dr. Gates comments concerning test scores. While I do not disagree with the analysis, I would take the statement further: An IQ test measures nothing more than how well one can take an IQ test. Please forgive the tautology.
My academic background is in the preparation of teachers for urban, public-school classrooms. Several out-of-school factors have always been an important part of that preparation.
First, kindergarteners from print-rich homes come to school with working vocabularies far in advance of fellow students from print-poor homes. It is as fundamental a problem as brain development. That initial vocabulary gap can follow a capable, charming, bright student throughout her academic career.
Elementary teachers know this and work hard to identify those students and help them as much as possible in the time they have together.
Second, stressors at home (chaotic, unpredictable schedules, lack of quiet time, arguments, disciplinary techniques, TV babysitting, violence, fear, threats - real or imagined, etc.) create cycles of cortisol dumps that can permanently affect brain development (see David Berliner, et al. Arizona State University).
Elementary teachers know this too, and do what they can to create warm, loving, safe environments for their students, as best they can in the time they have together.
Finally, remember that teachers have their elementary charges about 6-7 hours a day, 30-35 hours a week. The students, each of them dripping with potential and hope, return to their neighborhoods and homes for the remaining 18 hours a day, about 138 hours a week. What happens in those 18 hours is out of their teachers’ direct control.
We often hear the old adage, “It takes a village to raise a child.” That’s true...but their is a prior, ongoing component to that: “It takes teachers to raise that village.”
God bless and protect the children, their parents and their teachers.
I fully agree on our need to expand educational resources to invest in all people. We don't know where the next Einstein will come from. However, we need to use the resources that we have prudently and to areas where it's been proven to work (a la Roland Fryer). Moreover, there has to be a way to inculcate in young, inner-city youth the value of spending more time learning academic subject as compared to bball. The odds are better that young men and women can develop skills learned in the academic setting and be very successful in life as compared to becoming an NBA player.
My observation rests in the discomfort in Glenn's voice; even as he shows due respect for Dr. Gates' opinion on the gamble of out-of-the box hiring and academic acceptance practices, he seems torn over it. That's what makes this such riveting intercourse. I'm sure Dr. Loury has played a hunch or two based on the perceived potential of an unpolished candidate, but he seems discomfited about totally buying into jazz theory that might analogize fast twitch muscle fibers with nimble neurons.
He lost me with his discussion on test scores. Over the past 50 years an enormous investment has been made in public schools, albeit poorly by governments. Those who want to learn from dedicated teachers will do so.
While rhetorically appealing, the idea that poor funding is responsible for disparate test scores between races doesn’t actually make any sense when examined. If monetary investment in students is returned in academic success, then we should expect the primary predictor of academic achievement to be school--and not race. But that isn’t what we see at all. Go to any suburban upper middle class high school like the one I went to, where this variable is controlled for, and you’ll find the same thing: Asians at the top, blacks at the bottom.
I’m reluctant to start arguments with people clearly much smarter than me, such as Gates, but even his own anecdote about his chess club seems to contradict his premise. He had good teachers and received a good education; he didn’t need lavish funding to beat the white schools in chess, or to outperform them on tests.
Good schools are important. Funding plays a role. But the idea that investment is anywhere close to the primary explanation for the major achievement gaps in this country is obviously shallow. Wilfred Reilly would post his chart of “hours spent studying by race.” I’d link it here, but let’s be honest--we all know what it’s going to show.
All that said, Gates is an amazing speaker, and this was a great episode.
Thank you so much for having Dr. Gates on your podcast. It was an informative, engaging and entertaining conversation. On the issue of supersymmetry theory and Dr. Gates work in the field, I was disappointed and frankly a bit surprised that he did not acknowledge the 1974 work of Austrian theoretical physicist Julius Erich Wess and Italian theoretical physicist Bruno Zumino for their joint development of
supersymmetry and conformal field theory. Dr. Gates was just beginning his post graduate work when Wes’s and Zumino were publishing their theories. I’m confident it was not an intentional oversight on Dr. Gates part.
I have one suggestion for another way to approach Affirmative Action. This approach works well for both business and sports. If a manager is looking to hire someone for a position, it often makes sense to consider what each candidate will contribute to the team 2 or 3 years down the road rather than basing the decision on what the candidate currently would contribute. This approach forces a sensible manager to consider each candidate's background. If a candidate has not had effective training, but they present evidence that they can catch-up to others with effective training, then that should be considered.
I enjoyed the analogy to the discipline of music and symbolic vs. experiential knowledge, particularly with the implied understanding that blacks have made enormous contributions to our musical culture and, indeed, the modern world. I wonder, under closer scrutiny, how well this translates to STEM fields. I also question how the two dimensions of knowledge are presumed to act upon on each other. A common assumption is that they are somehow inversely correlated, but I'm not sure that this is true.
Surprised that Gates failed to mention that, in addition to being an "outsider" of sorts, Einstein was also a terrible student!
Can I say that having listened to Prof Gates for many years, that he is also the one of the most engaging science communicators in the world, and he was able to demonstrate that during this interview. And I can imagine his contribution to physics extends greatly to his inspiring many to follow in his path.
What a joy this conversation was. Thanks, Drs. Glenn and Jim.
I was particularly struck by Dr. Gates comments concerning test scores. While I do not disagree with the analysis, I would take the statement further: An IQ test measures nothing more than how well one can take an IQ test. Please forgive the tautology.
Great stuff. PLEASE extend this conversation by a factor of 20.
My academic background is in the preparation of teachers for urban, public-school classrooms. Several out-of-school factors have always been an important part of that preparation.
First, kindergarteners from print-rich homes come to school with working vocabularies far in advance of fellow students from print-poor homes. It is as fundamental a problem as brain development. That initial vocabulary gap can follow a capable, charming, bright student throughout her academic career.
Elementary teachers know this and work hard to identify those students and help them as much as possible in the time they have together.
Second, stressors at home (chaotic, unpredictable schedules, lack of quiet time, arguments, disciplinary techniques, TV babysitting, violence, fear, threats - real or imagined, etc.) create cycles of cortisol dumps that can permanently affect brain development (see David Berliner, et al. Arizona State University).
Elementary teachers know this too, and do what they can to create warm, loving, safe environments for their students, as best they can in the time they have together.
Finally, remember that teachers have their elementary charges about 6-7 hours a day, 30-35 hours a week. The students, each of them dripping with potential and hope, return to their neighborhoods and homes for the remaining 18 hours a day, about 138 hours a week. What happens in those 18 hours is out of their teachers’ direct control.
We often hear the old adage, “It takes a village to raise a child.” That’s true...but their is a prior, ongoing component to that: “It takes teachers to raise that village.”
God bless and protect the children, their parents and their teachers.
I fully agree on our need to expand educational resources to invest in all people. We don't know where the next Einstein will come from. However, we need to use the resources that we have prudently and to areas where it's been proven to work (a la Roland Fryer). Moreover, there has to be a way to inculcate in young, inner-city youth the value of spending more time learning academic subject as compared to bball. The odds are better that young men and women can develop skills learned in the academic setting and be very successful in life as compared to becoming an NBA player.
My observation rests in the discomfort in Glenn's voice; even as he shows due respect for Dr. Gates' opinion on the gamble of out-of-the box hiring and academic acceptance practices, he seems torn over it. That's what makes this such riveting intercourse. I'm sure Dr. Loury has played a hunch or two based on the perceived potential of an unpolished candidate, but he seems discomfited about totally buying into jazz theory that might analogize fast twitch muscle fibers with nimble neurons.
He lost me with his discussion on test scores. Over the past 50 years an enormous investment has been made in public schools, albeit poorly by governments. Those who want to learn from dedicated teachers will do so.
While rhetorically appealing, the idea that poor funding is responsible for disparate test scores between races doesn’t actually make any sense when examined. If monetary investment in students is returned in academic success, then we should expect the primary predictor of academic achievement to be school--and not race. But that isn’t what we see at all. Go to any suburban upper middle class high school like the one I went to, where this variable is controlled for, and you’ll find the same thing: Asians at the top, blacks at the bottom.
I’m reluctant to start arguments with people clearly much smarter than me, such as Gates, but even his own anecdote about his chess club seems to contradict his premise. He had good teachers and received a good education; he didn’t need lavish funding to beat the white schools in chess, or to outperform them on tests.
Good schools are important. Funding plays a role. But the idea that investment is anywhere close to the primary explanation for the major achievement gaps in this country is obviously shallow. Wilfred Reilly would post his chart of “hours spent studying by race.” I’d link it here, but let’s be honest--we all know what it’s going to show.
All that said, Gates is an amazing speaker, and this was a great episode.
Thank you so much for having Dr. Gates on your podcast. It was an informative, engaging and entertaining conversation. On the issue of supersymmetry theory and Dr. Gates work in the field, I was disappointed and frankly a bit surprised that he did not acknowledge the 1974 work of Austrian theoretical physicist Julius Erich Wess and Italian theoretical physicist Bruno Zumino for their joint development of
supersymmetry and conformal field theory. Dr. Gates was just beginning his post graduate work when Wes’s and Zumino were publishing their theories. I’m confident it was not an intentional oversight on Dr. Gates part.
This was a good discussion.
I have one suggestion for another way to approach Affirmative Action. This approach works well for both business and sports. If a manager is looking to hire someone for a position, it often makes sense to consider what each candidate will contribute to the team 2 or 3 years down the road rather than basing the decision on what the candidate currently would contribute. This approach forces a sensible manager to consider each candidate's background. If a candidate has not had effective training, but they present evidence that they can catch-up to others with effective training, then that should be considered.
I enjoyed the analogy to the discipline of music and symbolic vs. experiential knowledge, particularly with the implied understanding that blacks have made enormous contributions to our musical culture and, indeed, the modern world. I wonder, under closer scrutiny, how well this translates to STEM fields. I also question how the two dimensions of knowledge are presumed to act upon on each other. A common assumption is that they are somehow inversely correlated, but I'm not sure that this is true.
Surprised that Gates failed to mention that, in addition to being an "outsider" of sorts, Einstein was also a terrible student!
Can I say that having listened to Prof Gates for many years, that he is also the one of the most engaging science communicators in the world, and he was able to demonstrate that during this interview. And I can imagine his contribution to physics extends greatly to his inspiring many to follow in his path.