My guest this week is Jay Bhattacharya, professor of medicine at Stanford and a critic of the US’s COVID policy. Jay first came to public prominence in 2020 as a co-writer of the Great Barrington Declaration, which argued that the social costs of lockdowns far outweighed whatever protection they offered against the virus, especially for children. For that offense, Jay and his distinguished colleagues were branded as “fringe epidemiologists” by the head of the National Institute of Health and many others.
I don’t believe trust in the medical and public health establishments can ever be restored. I was a skeptic, not of vaccines necessarily, but of the advice you get from your doctor which seems wholly driven by arrogance and the available medications. For me it started in my 40s (I am now nearly 80) with post menopausal hormones and went on from there. I have occasionally found a gp who isn’t of that mold but they usually operate outside of insurance schemes, especially Medicare, and affordability becomes a problem.
I had to laugh at Bhattacharya suggesting a treaty to stop experimenting with dangerous pathogens. We are now giving cluster bombs to Ukraine despite that their purpose is killing people and their use is illegal. There is an international agreement, but did we sign it? He also seems excessively naive to me, probably because he genuinely tries to be a good person and attributes similar motives to others. I think hanging is too good for Fauci and his friends. How many deaths is he responsible for?
Its about time, Glenn. I have thought for years this was a big blind spot for you guys. Pull that thread a bit further and you will find a true nest of rats.
This interview was riveting for me. If what professor Bhattacharya is presenting is actually true: that the Covid research was an experiment gone awry - and it was Fauchi’s mistake that he and a select few then tried to cover up at the expense of solid science and millions of lives (depending on how wide you want to examine unintended consequences)- that is chilling.
What happened with regards to how Covid was handled should absolutely be fully investigated for the sake of the greater good of this country and humanity. If we have truly reached the point in this country where money and power abdicate an individual’s accountability for their actions, we are in serious trouble.
The judge issued an injunction yesterday in the case that Jay Bhattacharya and others brought against the Biden Administration. The judge also said that the lawsuit against Biden is likely to be successful. It would be great if Glenn interviews Jay again after the lawsuit is resolved.
The government released its review of the origin of COVID. Most appears consistent with a natural origin. There is an admission that the origin could have been in the Wuhan lab.
Time 50: Lab leak theory discussion; I recently tried to meet in-person with a former co-worker/friend to discuss Lab-leak. I am trained as a biologist and epidemiologist (but low level in both). I wanted to share personal thoughts. My former co-worker is woke and refused to have discussion and refused to meet, saying “What is done is done and I looked it up on-line. I have no need for discussion.”
A little more than half way through, at the point of the discussion of the distinction between art & science in medicine and Hayek, and I feel moved to say that I find this conversation absolutely wonderful. I hope Professor Loury will have this excellent and good doctor on again, and before too long!
Approx Time 35:00; Both discuss how to move forward via reconciliation, standards, etc. Bret Weinstein stated importance of directors/officials doing (a) Acknowledge the error. (b) Identify cause of error. (c) Explain measures taken to correct error.
But, a-c becomes achievable only after directors/officials throw their arrogance into the garbage can. Fauci in 2023 March news interview said in reference to Lab-Leak Theory- that it is important that we all remain open to different theories; as if his demonstrated history of demonizing lab-leak and “fringe epidemiologists” did not exist. Fauci and others want to lie their way out of responsibility.
I want to be helpful in contributing to the “Moving forward” discussion. Since I live in SF, I volunteer the city to be repurposed as a maximum security prison for the nation’s public health directors at all levels. SF-Gov probably has 75-100 directors within the health department, alone. I would ask retired movie actor Kurt Russell to perform the role of prison warden.
Time 38: GL asks JB hypothetically about potential harm resulting from those who are wrong. JB responds that he doesn’t see wrongness as threat and that he would have discussion with Flat-Earther. I respond that one of normal friends (not woke), has become a flat-earther since Covid. Another friend supports Q-ANON. These two people have demonstrated more humanity than the entirety of my public health profession. Recently- the FDA website declares misinformation as threat to the public’s health and describes US-Gov as reliable source of information. Beware, climate is also “threat” to the public’s health. FDA Director needs to resign and as I advised AG Garland in my Dec 2022 letter, public health needs to be abolished. Too much rot.
One can argue that the lockdowns were merely misguided policies, in a situation with unknowns that made decisions difficult. Hard, but just barely possible.
There is no such excuse for covering up the lab leak. That is lies to advance personal financial and career status, and is inexcusable.
Nor for all the lies about the "vaccines," but this interview didn't even get into all THAT.
The appropriate way to deal with Fauci, Collins, Daszak, the Wuhan "Bat Lady," et al, is for them to be found, via an international court of inquiry, to have been grossly negligent and therefore ultimately responsible for the pandemic, and then to be sued into oblivion by the millions of people who suffered harm because of it.
The alternative of execution for crimes against humanity has its appeal, though, but their evil intent was not directed toward murder, merely lesser motives of financial gain and careerism, so what I suggest above seems more appropriate as it goes after that for which they acted and then lied to cover it up--money and career prestige.
Oh, and the institutions employing or contracting with the various doctors and researchers who knew it was a lab leak but nonetheless lied after Fauci's early February 2020 coordinating meeting should be debarred from any future Federal contracts (as should the individuals, themselves, obviously). They have proven themselves to not be trustworthy and reliable for such contracts or employment, and any institution employing or contracting with them is by extension also not to be trusted. Said institutions can, of course, purge themselves of the problem, or live with the debarment.
So first off, I’d like to note that the lab leak theory is just such. Jay was so thoughtful and measured that I was surprised to hear him go from ‘I think the lab leak theory is more likely true’ to speaking of it as if it was settled. There are data that support both lab leak and crossover from probably bats, maybe via some intermediate species. (Check out data on the rates of Covid-19 in migratory birds, for example). If we want to be scientific about it, we have to hold open the possibility that either is possible.
As for school closures, apparently that was from a previous plan to deal with swine flu circa 2010 that got dusted off. Coronavirus isn’t the flu, so it wasn’t the right approach but *usually* kids are little cootie factories that do go around spreading infections around the community. It was a reasonable assumption, even if it did turn out wrong.
Another thing I haven’t heard much about, is that normally the CDC, not NIH, would have lead communications. In the beginning, the representative from the CDC made some announcement that this Covid thing could be serious, and was promptly silenced. It was my understanding at the time that Fauci became the face because he was more politic in his answers and more amenable to the Trump administration’s preferred messaging. There were mistakes all over the place on that front (ie messaging, including semi hysterical press coverage).
I have to say, from my perspective the problem was the terrible communication. From at first saying we didn’t need masks (which people heard as ‘masks don’t work’) to saying you can use a ripped up tee shirt or bandana as a mask (not if you want it to do anything) to the fact that it was spread through aerosols not just droplets (which was known for months before it was widely reported in the media) to what the vaccine would and would not do and so on. People somehow thought they needed to wash their groceries and mail! Think the fight against misinformation became the priority as conspiracy theories took over, to a large degree in my option, because the public messaging was so completely without nuance and also afraid to acknowledge that guidance was really changing over time.
I would love to see a thorough review of stuff that went wrong. I’d put at the top of the list a failure to get n95 masks out to people who needed them right away, a lack of testing (regular large scale testing could have allowed schools to open safely right away) and our society’s idiotic prioritization of keeping bars open at the expense of schools. A lot could have been improved if activities had just moved outside/opened a window. Somehow politics just bowled right over reason.
It’s hard to forgive, but the judgement of history is sufficient as punishment in this temporal realm. But history requires memory and corroboration and the cooling of passion and partisan poison. So cool heads must pervade for the common good. We have suffered a terrible disaster and we risk endless repetition unless we change our ways and the structure of our incentives. The Mesopotamian mythology of the afterlife, involved a voyage or gauntlet of seven judgements, through which the soul must pass to reach immortality. Each of these gauntlets or tests was administered by a terrible demigod or devil which would eat the soul if it failed to measure up. One of these was responsible for punishing bad kings or rulers who hurt these subjects. Who failed the public good.
As editor of this Substack and moderator of the comments section, I'm afraid I have to speak out on a very serious matter. The Star Trek episode Jay cites was not, in fact, an Original Series episode but a TNG episode. It's called "The Survivors" (S3E3). It's a classic.
I don’t believe trust in the medical and public health establishments can ever be restored. I was a skeptic, not of vaccines necessarily, but of the advice you get from your doctor which seems wholly driven by arrogance and the available medications. For me it started in my 40s (I am now nearly 80) with post menopausal hormones and went on from there. I have occasionally found a gp who isn’t of that mold but they usually operate outside of insurance schemes, especially Medicare, and affordability becomes a problem.
I had to laugh at Bhattacharya suggesting a treaty to stop experimenting with dangerous pathogens. We are now giving cluster bombs to Ukraine despite that their purpose is killing people and their use is illegal. There is an international agreement, but did we sign it? He also seems excessively naive to me, probably because he genuinely tries to be a good person and attributes similar motives to others. I think hanging is too good for Fauci and his friends. How many deaths is he responsible for?
I read the Shattuck book too.
Its about time, Glenn. I have thought for years this was a big blind spot for you guys. Pull that thread a bit further and you will find a true nest of rats.
This interview was riveting for me. If what professor Bhattacharya is presenting is actually true: that the Covid research was an experiment gone awry - and it was Fauchi’s mistake that he and a select few then tried to cover up at the expense of solid science and millions of lives (depending on how wide you want to examine unintended consequences)- that is chilling.
What happened with regards to how Covid was handled should absolutely be fully investigated for the sake of the greater good of this country and humanity. If we have truly reached the point in this country where money and power abdicate an individual’s accountability for their actions, we are in serious trouble.
The judge issued an injunction yesterday in the case that Jay Bhattacharya and others brought against the Biden Administration. The judge also said that the lawsuit against Biden is likely to be successful. It would be great if Glenn interviews Jay again after the lawsuit is resolved.
The government released its review of the origin of COVID. Most appears consistent with a natural origin. There is an admission that the origin could have been in the Wuhan lab.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/23/covid-origins-us-intelligence/
The Chinese government limited access to important data so we may never know the truth.
Great interview with Dr. Battacharya.
Glenn, Glad your voice is out there. Tha k you fir having Jay on your show. His points are reasonable and needed in our Country. JS
Time 50: Lab leak theory discussion; I recently tried to meet in-person with a former co-worker/friend to discuss Lab-leak. I am trained as a biologist and epidemiologist (but low level in both). I wanted to share personal thoughts. My former co-worker is woke and refused to have discussion and refused to meet, saying “What is done is done and I looked it up on-line. I have no need for discussion.”
A little more than half way through, at the point of the discussion of the distinction between art & science in medicine and Hayek, and I feel moved to say that I find this conversation absolutely wonderful. I hope Professor Loury will have this excellent and good doctor on again, and before too long!
Approx Time 35:00; Both discuss how to move forward via reconciliation, standards, etc. Bret Weinstein stated importance of directors/officials doing (a) Acknowledge the error. (b) Identify cause of error. (c) Explain measures taken to correct error.
But, a-c becomes achievable only after directors/officials throw their arrogance into the garbage can. Fauci in 2023 March news interview said in reference to Lab-Leak Theory- that it is important that we all remain open to different theories; as if his demonstrated history of demonizing lab-leak and “fringe epidemiologists” did not exist. Fauci and others want to lie their way out of responsibility.
I want to be helpful in contributing to the “Moving forward” discussion. Since I live in SF, I volunteer the city to be repurposed as a maximum security prison for the nation’s public health directors at all levels. SF-Gov probably has 75-100 directors within the health department, alone. I would ask retired movie actor Kurt Russell to perform the role of prison warden.
Time 38: GL asks JB hypothetically about potential harm resulting from those who are wrong. JB responds that he doesn’t see wrongness as threat and that he would have discussion with Flat-Earther. I respond that one of normal friends (not woke), has become a flat-earther since Covid. Another friend supports Q-ANON. These two people have demonstrated more humanity than the entirety of my public health profession. Recently- the FDA website declares misinformation as threat to the public’s health and describes US-Gov as reliable source of information. Beware, climate is also “threat” to the public’s health. FDA Director needs to resign and as I advised AG Garland in my Dec 2022 letter, public health needs to be abolished. Too much rot.
One can argue that the lockdowns were merely misguided policies, in a situation with unknowns that made decisions difficult. Hard, but just barely possible.
There is no such excuse for covering up the lab leak. That is lies to advance personal financial and career status, and is inexcusable.
Nor for all the lies about the "vaccines," but this interview didn't even get into all THAT.
The appropriate way to deal with Fauci, Collins, Daszak, the Wuhan "Bat Lady," et al, is for them to be found, via an international court of inquiry, to have been grossly negligent and therefore ultimately responsible for the pandemic, and then to be sued into oblivion by the millions of people who suffered harm because of it.
The alternative of execution for crimes against humanity has its appeal, though, but their evil intent was not directed toward murder, merely lesser motives of financial gain and careerism, so what I suggest above seems more appropriate as it goes after that for which they acted and then lied to cover it up--money and career prestige.
Oh, and the institutions employing or contracting with the various doctors and researchers who knew it was a lab leak but nonetheless lied after Fauci's early February 2020 coordinating meeting should be debarred from any future Federal contracts (as should the individuals, themselves, obviously). They have proven themselves to not be trustworthy and reliable for such contracts or employment, and any institution employing or contracting with them is by extension also not to be trusted. Said institutions can, of course, purge themselves of the problem, or live with the debarment.
So first off, I’d like to note that the lab leak theory is just such. Jay was so thoughtful and measured that I was surprised to hear him go from ‘I think the lab leak theory is more likely true’ to speaking of it as if it was settled. There are data that support both lab leak and crossover from probably bats, maybe via some intermediate species. (Check out data on the rates of Covid-19 in migratory birds, for example). If we want to be scientific about it, we have to hold open the possibility that either is possible.
As for school closures, apparently that was from a previous plan to deal with swine flu circa 2010 that got dusted off. Coronavirus isn’t the flu, so it wasn’t the right approach but *usually* kids are little cootie factories that do go around spreading infections around the community. It was a reasonable assumption, even if it did turn out wrong.
Another thing I haven’t heard much about, is that normally the CDC, not NIH, would have lead communications. In the beginning, the representative from the CDC made some announcement that this Covid thing could be serious, and was promptly silenced. It was my understanding at the time that Fauci became the face because he was more politic in his answers and more amenable to the Trump administration’s preferred messaging. There were mistakes all over the place on that front (ie messaging, including semi hysterical press coverage).
I have to say, from my perspective the problem was the terrible communication. From at first saying we didn’t need masks (which people heard as ‘masks don’t work’) to saying you can use a ripped up tee shirt or bandana as a mask (not if you want it to do anything) to the fact that it was spread through aerosols not just droplets (which was known for months before it was widely reported in the media) to what the vaccine would and would not do and so on. People somehow thought they needed to wash their groceries and mail! Think the fight against misinformation became the priority as conspiracy theories took over, to a large degree in my option, because the public messaging was so completely without nuance and also afraid to acknowledge that guidance was really changing over time.
I would love to see a thorough review of stuff that went wrong. I’d put at the top of the list a failure to get n95 masks out to people who needed them right away, a lack of testing (regular large scale testing could have allowed schools to open safely right away) and our society’s idiotic prioritization of keeping bars open at the expense of schools. A lot could have been improved if activities had just moved outside/opened a window. Somehow politics just bowled right over reason.
It’s hard to forgive, but the judgement of history is sufficient as punishment in this temporal realm. But history requires memory and corroboration and the cooling of passion and partisan poison. So cool heads must pervade for the common good. We have suffered a terrible disaster and we risk endless repetition unless we change our ways and the structure of our incentives. The Mesopotamian mythology of the afterlife, involved a voyage or gauntlet of seven judgements, through which the soul must pass to reach immortality. Each of these gauntlets or tests was administered by a terrible demigod or devil which would eat the soul if it failed to measure up. One of these was responsible for punishing bad kings or rulers who hurt these subjects. Who failed the public good.
As editor of this Substack and moderator of the comments section, I'm afraid I have to speak out on a very serious matter. The Star Trek episode Jay cites was not, in fact, an Original Series episode but a TNG episode. It's called "The Survivors" (S3E3). It's a classic.