Yesterday, I heard that it was Israel (Netanyahu) who intentionally empowered Hamas as a way to thwart progress on a two state solution…timesofisrael.com/for-y…. If this is true, does this change how you see the plight of the millions in Gaza?
No, it does not. Why would it? The stress here on Netanyahu is misplaced. Israeli leaders, the UN, the US, the Europeans, Qatar, Iran and many other sources of funds keep Hamas going. Obviously, the Israeli hope was to buy them off and induce them to behave. It was always a stopgap and likely always doomed. As for being a way to "thwart progress on a two-state solution," I say what progress? NO Palestinian faction, party or leader has ever actually taken the idea of a two-state solution seriously. They have had it offered to them by Israelis several times. The response is always the same: Lead the Israelis on up to the edge and then start up the next intifada. The Times of Israel does not like Netanyahu, but count me deeply skeptical about their emphasis on him alone.
Besides, in what sense does any Israeli's bumbling effort to manage the dangers posed by Hamas and the P.A. undercut the horrors of what Hamas did, and did alone, or the need to destroy it now?
I in no way am attempting to undercut the horrors of Hamas, I just don’t believe in collective punishment of the civilian population for the terrorism of a minority. My understanding of this article, which was new to me, was that Netanyahu empowered Hamas, while taking power away from Abbas specifically because he might have sought a compromise. You can for sure argue that Palestinians have never wanted peace, but I have heard countered that what was called “peace plans” didn’t actually offer a real Palestine for Palestinians like with control of borders and autonomy. When I hear talk of Palestinians, it most often is talk of the terrorists as though they are all the same. That makes me incredibly nervous. My take from history is that the first step before atrocities is dehumanization, and we know that Hamas has dehumanized all Israelis, but if Israel responds by demonizing a large Palestinian population… especially if Israel on purpose put Palestinians in a position to be aligned with terrorists instead of more moderate forces specifically to be more easily demunanized…
Two points and then I believe I have overused my space and time here.
First, the ONLY people who believe in the "collective punishment of the civilian population" of Gaza are the leaders of Hamas, who put their people in harms way and will not even allow them to get out of harms way by going south a few miles now. Israel is not engaging in collective punishment by going into Gaza for the sole purpose of destroying Hamas. I simply do not accept your way of framing this, which is tragically the way the world frames it.
Secondly, when you say Netanyahu empowered Hamas to undercut Abbas, you imply there is a big difference between those two. In fact, when Abbas speaks to his own people in their language, it is the language of Hamas. Your talk of Israel not offering "a real Palestine" implies that Abbas, unlike Hamas, wants a real Palestine that would not endanger Israel's very existence. Abbas and the P.A. play a double and duplicitous game, but what he tells his own people is "right of return." which would swamp Israel and end it as a Jewish nation. "From the river to the sea," a land judenrein, is the chant that all the friends of the Palestinians in the West love to chant. They understand perfectly what the "real Palestine" has to be.
No one with any humanity wishes for collective punishment. Leaving aside the guilt or innocence of those who elected Hamas to govern Gaza, what course of action would you suggest Israel take to secure its right to exist?
The first casualty of war is humanity. I have heard leaders of the current Israeli government call for leveling Gaza. The current push to get the residents of Gaza to leave is being called potential ethnic cleansing (which I would think the Jewish people of all people would be against.) As was shutting off water, electricity, and food to Gaza in addition to demanding millions of people move often by foot to a new place (southern Gaza) with no resources. Mustafa Barghouti, apparently a long time peace activist, believes that as long as the occupation continues there can be no peace. I haven’t heard a lot from the Gaza perspective, just characterization of Gaza, so I don’t know, except for this man and a professor from Columbia. In fact, I haven’t heard much about how to fix things, just rage about the atrocities. And resignation about the imminent, but somehow unavoidable, slaughter of civilians.
Israel faces an existential threat. They respond or they die. You use the word "occupation" as if they were from someplace else and just stationing troops like the US did in Germany and Japan. This is in reality the home land for many jews for thousands of years. Many others migrated and integrated from the early 1800s. More came after partition in 1948 and with the end of the mandate, attempted to set up two independent states. The Arabs refused and offered war, repeatedly. We may decry violence, but violence has already visited, and will again if unchecked.
JasonT, this from Brendan O'Neill seems to me to sum up what we are up against and what it comes down to.
"So let me get this right. If Israel bombs Hamas targets in Gaza, it is recklessly endangering civilian life. But if it gives civilians fair warning to move away from certain areas, it is engaging in ethnic cleansing. If it drops bombs in built-up suburbs, it is committing a war crime. But if it advises civilians to leave those built-up suburbs before the bombs come, it is also committing a war crime. If it attacks northern Gaza, that’s genocide. Yet when it tells the civilians of northern Gaza to leave first, that’s ‘forced transfer’, which is to say: genocide. Everything Israel does is a war crime. Everything. Killing civilians – war crime. Trying not to kill civilians – war crime. Bombing populated areas – war crime. Giving a population time to leave before dropping bombs – war crime. "
So, did you see that the IDF subsequently bombed the areas that Palestinian civilians were told to move to? Did you see all the children, both the killed and the survivors? If Gaza authorities are to believed, and you may not, as of today some 3000 children have been killed in Gaza. Do you really think this is a good thing for Israel’s long term prospects?
I watched an interview with a boy, clearly traumatized, whose next door neighbor’s house was leveled. The whole family gone. The boy said he missed his friend who lived there, because they played together every day. Do you think this boy is going to grow up to want to make peace with Israel? I suspect no more than the survivors of the 10/7 terror attacks want to make peace with Palestinians.
First, no. I do not believe the Gaza Health Ministry's numbers. Why on earth would I, or anyone.? These are the assertions of a terrorist organization that is notorious for lying and exaggerating. They reported the explosion in the parking lot next to that hospital as caused by Israel and as taking 500 lives. It was not caused by Israel, and the latest independent numbers I have seen are that 10-50 may have died. I would discount your 3,000 figure by at least that factor.
As for that boy, he will grow up to want war with Israel not because of this, but because his education, partly supported via the UN, etc., involves constant, vile antisemitic nonsense and such nice activities as dressing up as a suicide bomber. A sick culture is likely to produce him as a future terrorist, if anything does. Otherwise, he may well end up like the vast majority of Germans and Japanese, thankful that his side lost, and that a saner leadership arose in its place.
And really, Amy, if the IDF bombed areas from which civilians were told to move, but some of whom did not, and some died, whose responsibility is that? Hamas started this war, and Hamas prevents those people from leaving. This is a war crime, on Hamas, not Israel. They are using their own people as shields in the HOPE that Israeli attacks will inadvertently kill them. And in the assumption that our corrupted media will accept their spin on it all. The blood is entirely on Hamas' hands. Every single death is on their hands. Had they not done Oct, 7, NO ONE in Gaza would be dying from Israel's totally justified defense.
No, you misunderstood, the IDF bombed the areas the Palestinian civilians were told to move *to*.
I can tell that you are 100% in the pro-Israel camp. Hopefully you recognize the fire of your convictions is the same as those who support Palestine. I just feel sadness for suffering, especially the future suffering that all this current conviction will bring about.
Told to move to, told to move from, makes no difference. Their deaths are the fault of Hamas.
I also do not agree at all that any "fire" of my convictions is the same as for those who support the Palestinians, if by that you mean any whose support entails acceptance, even celebration, of the chosen and intended murder of innocents simply because of their tribe. Israel does everything it can to avoid killing innocents, Hamas does everything it can to target them and ensure Israel will hit them. I see absolutely no equivalence between these two. As has been said by others, if the Palestinians disarmed totally tomorrow there would be peace, whereas if Israel disarmed tomorrow there would be no Jews.
Israel has powerful enemies and fickle friends. They do not have the luxury of independent action. Eventually their enemies will win unless Israel destroys them.
Yesterday, I heard that it was Israel (Netanyahu) who intentionally empowered Hamas as a way to thwart progress on a two state solution…https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/. If this is true, does this change how you see the plight of the millions in Gaza?
No, it does not. Why would it? The stress here on Netanyahu is misplaced. Israeli leaders, the UN, the US, the Europeans, Qatar, Iran and many other sources of funds keep Hamas going. Obviously, the Israeli hope was to buy them off and induce them to behave. It was always a stopgap and likely always doomed. As for being a way to "thwart progress on a two-state solution," I say what progress? NO Palestinian faction, party or leader has ever actually taken the idea of a two-state solution seriously. They have had it offered to them by Israelis several times. The response is always the same: Lead the Israelis on up to the edge and then start up the next intifada. The Times of Israel does not like Netanyahu, but count me deeply skeptical about their emphasis on him alone.
Besides, in what sense does any Israeli's bumbling effort to manage the dangers posed by Hamas and the P.A. undercut the horrors of what Hamas did, and did alone, or the need to destroy it now?
I in no way am attempting to undercut the horrors of Hamas, I just don’t believe in collective punishment of the civilian population for the terrorism of a minority. My understanding of this article, which was new to me, was that Netanyahu empowered Hamas, while taking power away from Abbas specifically because he might have sought a compromise. You can for sure argue that Palestinians have never wanted peace, but I have heard countered that what was called “peace plans” didn’t actually offer a real Palestine for Palestinians like with control of borders and autonomy. When I hear talk of Palestinians, it most often is talk of the terrorists as though they are all the same. That makes me incredibly nervous. My take from history is that the first step before atrocities is dehumanization, and we know that Hamas has dehumanized all Israelis, but if Israel responds by demonizing a large Palestinian population… especially if Israel on purpose put Palestinians in a position to be aligned with terrorists instead of more moderate forces specifically to be more easily demunanized…
There was also an article Haaretz https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000, if that is a better source? It has a paywall, so I don’t know if it rebuts the thesis or not. From my perspective, it seems like there is plenty to dislike about Netanyahu, especially of late.
Two points and then I believe I have overused my space and time here.
First, the ONLY people who believe in the "collective punishment of the civilian population" of Gaza are the leaders of Hamas, who put their people in harms way and will not even allow them to get out of harms way by going south a few miles now. Israel is not engaging in collective punishment by going into Gaza for the sole purpose of destroying Hamas. I simply do not accept your way of framing this, which is tragically the way the world frames it.
Secondly, when you say Netanyahu empowered Hamas to undercut Abbas, you imply there is a big difference between those two. In fact, when Abbas speaks to his own people in their language, it is the language of Hamas. Your talk of Israel not offering "a real Palestine" implies that Abbas, unlike Hamas, wants a real Palestine that would not endanger Israel's very existence. Abbas and the P.A. play a double and duplicitous game, but what he tells his own people is "right of return." which would swamp Israel and end it as a Jewish nation. "From the river to the sea," a land judenrein, is the chant that all the friends of the Palestinians in the West love to chant. They understand perfectly what the "real Palestine" has to be.
Anyway, that's all for me. Have at it.
No one with any humanity wishes for collective punishment. Leaving aside the guilt or innocence of those who elected Hamas to govern Gaza, what course of action would you suggest Israel take to secure its right to exist?
The first casualty of war is humanity. I have heard leaders of the current Israeli government call for leveling Gaza. The current push to get the residents of Gaza to leave is being called potential ethnic cleansing (which I would think the Jewish people of all people would be against.) As was shutting off water, electricity, and food to Gaza in addition to demanding millions of people move often by foot to a new place (southern Gaza) with no resources. Mustafa Barghouti, apparently a long time peace activist, believes that as long as the occupation continues there can be no peace. I haven’t heard a lot from the Gaza perspective, just characterization of Gaza, so I don’t know, except for this man and a professor from Columbia. In fact, I haven’t heard much about how to fix things, just rage about the atrocities. And resignation about the imminent, but somehow unavoidable, slaughter of civilians.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/08/gps-1008-mustafa-barghouti-on-israels-war-on-hamas.cnn
Israel faces an existential threat. They respond or they die. You use the word "occupation" as if they were from someplace else and just stationing troops like the US did in Germany and Japan. This is in reality the home land for many jews for thousands of years. Many others migrated and integrated from the early 1800s. More came after partition in 1948 and with the end of the mandate, attempted to set up two independent states. The Arabs refused and offered war, repeatedly. We may decry violence, but violence has already visited, and will again if unchecked.
JasonT, this from Brendan O'Neill seems to me to sum up what we are up against and what it comes down to.
"So let me get this right. If Israel bombs Hamas targets in Gaza, it is recklessly endangering civilian life. But if it gives civilians fair warning to move away from certain areas, it is engaging in ethnic cleansing. If it drops bombs in built-up suburbs, it is committing a war crime. But if it advises civilians to leave those built-up suburbs before the bombs come, it is also committing a war crime. If it attacks northern Gaza, that’s genocide. Yet when it tells the civilians of northern Gaza to leave first, that’s ‘forced transfer’, which is to say: genocide. Everything Israel does is a war crime. Everything. Killing civilians – war crime. Trying not to kill civilians – war crime. Bombing populated areas – war crime. Giving a population time to leave before dropping bombs – war crime. "
https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/10/16/why-wont-the-jews-just-let-themselves-be-killed/
To which Bob Dylan in Neighborhood Bully gets the last word:
"Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully."
So, did you see that the IDF subsequently bombed the areas that Palestinian civilians were told to move to? Did you see all the children, both the killed and the survivors? If Gaza authorities are to believed, and you may not, as of today some 3000 children have been killed in Gaza. Do you really think this is a good thing for Israel’s long term prospects?
I watched an interview with a boy, clearly traumatized, whose next door neighbor’s house was leveled. The whole family gone. The boy said he missed his friend who lived there, because they played together every day. Do you think this boy is going to grow up to want to make peace with Israel? I suspect no more than the survivors of the 10/7 terror attacks want to make peace with Palestinians.
First, no. I do not believe the Gaza Health Ministry's numbers. Why on earth would I, or anyone.? These are the assertions of a terrorist organization that is notorious for lying and exaggerating. They reported the explosion in the parking lot next to that hospital as caused by Israel and as taking 500 lives. It was not caused by Israel, and the latest independent numbers I have seen are that 10-50 may have died. I would discount your 3,000 figure by at least that factor.
As for that boy, he will grow up to want war with Israel not because of this, but because his education, partly supported via the UN, etc., involves constant, vile antisemitic nonsense and such nice activities as dressing up as a suicide bomber. A sick culture is likely to produce him as a future terrorist, if anything does. Otherwise, he may well end up like the vast majority of Germans and Japanese, thankful that his side lost, and that a saner leadership arose in its place.
And really, Amy, if the IDF bombed areas from which civilians were told to move, but some of whom did not, and some died, whose responsibility is that? Hamas started this war, and Hamas prevents those people from leaving. This is a war crime, on Hamas, not Israel. They are using their own people as shields in the HOPE that Israeli attacks will inadvertently kill them. And in the assumption that our corrupted media will accept their spin on it all. The blood is entirely on Hamas' hands. Every single death is on their hands. Had they not done Oct, 7, NO ONE in Gaza would be dying from Israel's totally justified defense.
No, you misunderstood, the IDF bombed the areas the Palestinian civilians were told to move *to*.
I can tell that you are 100% in the pro-Israel camp. Hopefully you recognize the fire of your convictions is the same as those who support Palestine. I just feel sadness for suffering, especially the future suffering that all this current conviction will bring about.
Told to move to, told to move from, makes no difference. Their deaths are the fault of Hamas.
I also do not agree at all that any "fire" of my convictions is the same as for those who support the Palestinians, if by that you mean any whose support entails acceptance, even celebration, of the chosen and intended murder of innocents simply because of their tribe. Israel does everything it can to avoid killing innocents, Hamas does everything it can to target them and ensure Israel will hit them. I see absolutely no equivalence between these two. As has been said by others, if the Palestinians disarmed totally tomorrow there would be peace, whereas if Israel disarmed tomorrow there would be no Jews.
Israel has powerful enemies and fickle friends. They do not have the luxury of independent action. Eventually their enemies will win unless Israel destroys them.