This week, John McWhorter is back, and there’s plenty to discuss. We catch up on some issues that passed us by during our unplanned hiatus—including Trump’s conviction—and we share some new book news. And my current book, Late Admissions: Confessions of a Black Conservative
The failure to make the key distinction between illegal immigration and legal immigration continues to amaze and disappoint me. Glenn, you know this distinction is essential in this discussion. Why just glide right over it? I think it's safe to say that a clear majority of Americans are very supportive of legal immigration from all parts of the world. Things change when the topic changes to illegal immigration. And they get downright nasty when that distinction is ignored, intentionally or unintentionally. It is simply meaningless to discuss Trump's views on immigration without acknowledging this.
Tyler 70,000 Afghanistan’s have been murdered. The govt is sending $43-87 MILLION dollars a WEEK to the Taliban. 20,000 of our Afghanistan allies have disappeared. The entire country is now training terrorists from every group, Bin Laden’s son has received MILLIONS from the US and the US is paying terrorists families whose family member died while trying to kill our service members a stipend every month. Maybe you want to watch Shawn Ryan and the CIA Targetor Amanda on You Tube. There are 3 seperate episodes. https://youtube.com/shorts/CIARjpa5S6c?si=6l7nK-woFHwPweTe
John, because you don’t choose to see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening . When it’s your child I’m certain you will have a different view of illegals. Also, when countries release all of their criminals and they walk across our border, we don’t even know they are criminals. We also have thousands who are not on the watch list because we don’t even know they are terrorists. Who’s the child? The one who chooses to bury their head. The lack of factual data, which has been un covered out of the govt own mouth in court documents, in this conversation is astonishing.
Where do John and Glenn get their news. Jan 6th and election fraud, have neither of you kept up with the 100’s of documents obtained thru FOIA for both? Hillary, Biden and Obama concocted the Russia hoax against Trump. Watch Shawn Ryan and the CIA Targetor (3 episodes) so you both can realize the danger we are in.
I had heard from conservative political analysts that Democrats believed that Trump was this uniquely grotesque political figure that deserved this exceptional level of political and personal persecution and that once he was destroyed, American politics would return to a more congenial "normality". I didn't believe that anyone of any intelligence could actually believe that was true. John has proven me wrong.
You two never fail to leave me more encouraged and hopeful each time I listen to your exchanges❣️
As a 66 year old, white, conservative female voter raised in Mississippi, I’m painfully aware of the unfair prejudice I might face when some read the information I have just shared.
As someone who has never felt as if I fit neatly into one political camp or the other (like SO MANY American voters), one of my deepest disappointments throughout the past several years of political turmoil has been the removal of “my rose-colored glasses”.
Born in 1958 in Northern Italy to a handsome American Air Force enlistee and a young Italian Beauty, my father brought us “home” to
Mississippi when I was less than a month old.
Being raised in our home meant being taught about the beauty and worth of each human being regardless of the color of their skin (red blood runs through ALL of our veins), the country of origin, chosen religion, and the varied economic status of individuals. Unkindness and disrespect toward others was NOT tolerated.
Non of the above mentioned elements alone make a person WHO they are; it is the CHARACTER of each individual and the way that they treat others that tells me the most about who deserves my honor and respect.
We were taught that God made each individual because of His Love for them, giving them special gifts and talents to be shared during their time on this earth for the good of all mankind. We are each uniquely and wonderfully made and there is no other exactly like us.
To see, on the scale made available to us via media, the overwhelming anger, frustration, distrust and UNFAIR JUDGEMENT of others, one to the other solely based on their vote, left me in disbelief. WHY were citizens so willing to “assume” things about another person they know NOTHING about, treating them with blind disdain and hatred?!
This seems like the epitome of ignorance to me.
I was SHOCKED and DISMAYED to find dear friends abandoning me based on ONLY ONE element of my overall personhood, 💔 my privilege and right to vote my own conscience.
Thankfully, I was made aware of BRAVER ANGELS
(www.braverangels.org) which brings people from across the U.S. (and World!) to have CIVIL and CURIOUS Conversations. helping us to get to know and understand others with whom we disagree. Braver Angels restored my faith in mankind❣️
Thank you both, so very much, for sharing your insightful and wise perspectives. 🙏🏻 💕
Welcome back, hope your recovery is smooth and swift. Somewhat off track but still in the ballpark comment to follow.
It is remarkable how many very intelligent commenters seem to gloss over the avalanche of lies that have been sold about Trump. John, how are people to gauge truth value of claims that he’s “a danger to our democracy”, when those promoting this apocolyptic claim, are willing to swallow the Steele dossier, the pee tape, Russia collusion, etc, without a decent review of the dirty tricks campaign to disable his candidacy? I swear in good faith, the hysterical polemics would cut more ice with me, if we had not been lied to about serious matters first, that our leaders and media outlets gave so much credence to.
The above are only a small sample of partisan use of false stories to smear the reputation and hobble the administration of a duly elected president. That truly strains my patience, as false accusations and propaganda are the real threat to democracy. It is unprecidented, and for students of ancient history, the Clinton's network of politiical/media allies are the megaphone that drove the bus.
I’ll keep it simple. Even if his haters brought the goods, which they have failed to do, so far, despite years of expensive DOJ scrutiny, CIA SNOOPING, and two impeachments, Donald Trump was always my last choice. The Clintons are neck deep in starting this soap opera. Trump spared me living under another Clinton for eight years. And in my world, that earns alot of forgiveness. I don't care about click bait, scurrilous accusations of a personal nature, under these circumstances. After all, if a few are even remotely credible, I’m voting for a president, not a pope. If he's an arm twister, not breaker, he's qualified for the job. And under relentless attack, his administration delivered the policies that produced less regulation, a strong economy, jobs, lower taxes, American energy independece, gas @ $2,79 in Cali, and one more thing - a six - three majority. He's still the better choice among those available. Are you excited about a President Harris. I rest my case.
Climate change catastrophe is an unfalsifiable proposition. And the scaremongering by true believers is governed by the principle - Heads I win - tails you lose. So there, climate hysterics.
Honestly? It is not even worth it at this point =)
Remember when Denver talk radio host Ken Hamlin would say, "Pick a better country?" Well, it has become increasingly easy to think as such.
If I have to explain why POTUS Trump Season II is a problem, that's the problem. If I can't call a spade a spade without folks declaring "Trump Derangement Syndrome🤡", that's the problem.
This is not about Donald Trump and never was. It is about his effect on the American culture.
It is *not* about "policy". Even the GOP knows that. Remember the 2020 Republican Convention, when they failed to adopt a position platform? It made perfect sense. They didn't need one. It didn't make any difference, because it's not about policy. It is about what Trump represents in the eyes of *many* of his supporters: A revanchist fantasy, a cudgel to bludgeon that which they hate, and so forth.
Is the left in any way culpable? Of course, and to a significant extent. But that is hardly an excuse for the endless cluster**** we see in the GOP today.
Dr. G, you said something like, "John, it should be easy to convince the electorate if Trump is THAT bad." But that's not realistic. You are giving the American people way too much credit, especially on the right.
Wanna know why Democrats struggle to sway certain people? Because certain people aren't swayable. More importantly, the GOP vis-à-vis Trump has the luxury of not having to posit arguments. Trump's symbolism and cult of personality is all they need and the leaders of the Party know that.
And talk about hypocrisy. How many times have we heard folks on the right say things like: "The Democrats take the Black vote for granted. And since Black people are gonna vote Democrat no matter what, why bother?"
Welcome to the same movie; different characters. But arguably worse.
It doesn't matter what Trump (or Biden for that matter) says or does at this point. A huge slice of the American pie is committed to Trump, and if he loses, he's not bowing out gracefully. We know this. Trump will (again) claim another "stolen election", but with an even more loyal GOP by his side; he has them in the palm of his hands.
And by the way, the man clearly has a few mental issues. Yet somewhere between a third and half of the electorate want him in charge of our nuclear weapons.
It is not that hard to fathom why POTUS Trump Season II could be a threat to US democracy.
The difficulty I find in your statements, Charles, is your “blanket criticism” of ALL Conservative Voters. So many who speak about Trump and his “deplorable” and (in the estimation of so many Democrats) ignorant supporters, seem to be ignoring the “log” in their own party’s eye.
I could NOT stand Trump when he first appeared on the political stage. I was incredulous at some of his unkind and disrespectful interactions.
I struggled MIGHTILY in deciding who to vote for.
BUT, as I began to watch the Democratic Leadership more closely and their own actions, I realized that, for me, they seem to pose a bigger threat to the health of our Country and her citizens. The DEEP HATRED for Trump (“Trump Derangement Syndrome”) which I initially thought was ridiculous, soon began to, seemingly, prove true.
Even more hurtful and disappointing is the DISRESPECT and open blanket Criticism they have shown for American Citizens not voting their party line. Blues began to “eat their own” over even a hint of understanding toward Reds. I know MANY Blues who are now Red or Independent.
Biden’s past 4 years, beginning with the Dems refusal to condemn the extreme actions of the far left, standing by idly as Democratic supporters bullied, cancelled, demeaned and made ignorant assumptions about their fellow voting citizens for whom they knew NOTHING about EXCEPT their vote for Trump, showed me that there have been few “Heroes” willing to help save our Nation from the bitter divide. (Although, through BRAVER ANGELS I have found BRAVE Legislators on both sides of the aisle!)
UNTIL I get to KNOW more about another person, I have very little on which to judge their Character. I might not like their choice of Presidential Candidate, but that alone tells me VERY LITTLE about someone as a WHOLE person.
I STILL have issues with Trump but, after four years of a Biden Whitehouse, the Dems scare me, personally, MUCH MORE than Trump.
I’m deeply disappointed in those on both sides who refuse to stand for “We The People”, Red, Blue or Independent.
Please, God, Save America. 🙏🏻
Please check out BRAVER ANGELS (www.braverangels.org) to find Americans (and others!) willing to have CIVIL and CURIOUS Conversations to learn more about those with whom we don’t fully agree. I believe you will be GREATLY ENCOURAGED by the work this Important Organization is doing.
"your “blanket criticism” of ALL Conservative Voters"
Rita, when did I do this? (And no, I am not trying to be facetious or coy.)
I re-read my post to see if your claim was valid. It's not.
I didn't pull any punches. I will concede that. But I didn't even *use* the word conservative. Not once. In fact, I kind of went out of my way to NOT criticize "all", using qualifiers like "*MANY* of his supporters", "certain people", etc.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but a LOT of my views are conservative, based on the *old* meaning. (I am not sure WHAT "conservative" means *these* days.)
I used to *proudly* call myself a "Black conservative" back in the day. Fwiw, some of my best friends--specifically two people--are or were Trump supporters. I am the last person who will label ALL of *anything* as all good or all bad.
I am not a Democrat. I am not a liberal. I am not a man of the left. I don't know too many Dems who hate affirmative action the way I do. I don't know too many leftists who promote the free market the way I do. But if you ask me, none of that is relevant here.
Look at what the American right has become over the past decade, especially vis-à-vis Donald Trump. That is *my* point ultimately. Look at the effects on the overall culture, politically and otherwise. I can't even watch a basketball game without dudes trying to make Caitlin Clark into their new culture war symbol. It's childish and pathetic.
And I don't see the logic in voting for someone with the temperament of a Donald Trump. Again, nuclear weapons matter. When a choice is as binary and consequential as this one, nuance needs to take a back seat. Just my opinion.
Lastly, I know about Braver Angels. John Wood has my utmost respect.
I am more than capable of having a calm, fair-minded conversation, Rita. But like McWhorter, I have to ask at some point, where do we draw the line?
We don't have to agree about where we draw our respective lines.
I'm with John on why Trump is unfit for office and Glenn, you are really blind if you can't see it. Yes, I know Trump actually has some attractive ideas--he's right about stanching the hemorrhage of unfiltered wannabe citizens at the border, and he's against a lot of trans nonsense which I will be happy to see him kick out the door--and I'm a left-leaner. Trump can have a few good ideas (no one's a *complete* idiot) while still being unfit for office--in Trump's case, morally unfit and now legally compromised, even if it's ruled he can run for office (I'm not sure that's been determined yet). You can moan about how it's all about politics and you're right (so is Hunter Biden's conviction, baldly) but the fact still remains that *both* men broke laws and everyone should be accountable, and I'd rather debate *why* it took so long for either of them rather than waiting until either case looks politically motivated.
But Trump is still Trump, and has never been truly qualified to be President. Everyone knows it and I think you do too, Glenn. I will cheer a few things Trump does if he gets elected, and probably mourn or criticize many more, but in November I'll vote for the crazy brainworm guy. I can't see how anyone in good conscience can vote for Trump, and Biden & the Democrats don't look any better either--simply for different reasons.
John stated the one entirely sufficient reason that Trump is unfit for office: he refused to accept the results of a legitimate election and tried to overturn it. Accepting the results of an election is the rock-bottom minimum requirement for elective office. Compared to that, nothing else matters. And to Glenn's claim that "we made it through just fine", failing to accept an election result is something that can only happen at the end of a term.
Should John admit that he has TDS? It is, at least, some excuse for publicly announcing that you wish someone would murder Trump. I can’t help but wonder what John really thinks of someone that would vote for Trump. Perhaps just a serious wounding?
Each time John talks about Trump, my respect for John's intellect and objectivity takes a hit. He is almost at the level of Deniro TDS. But I dont even think that Deniro went as far as seemingly wanting to kill Trump himself or have someone kill Trump.... That part that John stumbles through needs to be clarified. I was like wtf did he just allude to
John, to your Trump immigrant point. You are outlining that Trump has a incredibly unique immigration outlook that that is unprecedented.
While it may be unique on the right, it is certainly not unique in politics. And, I think that is what you’re not including in your calculus.
The Biden admin for all intents and purposes is functioning as an open borders administration. That, for all your upset on Trumps end, is an equally unique and unprecedented stance on immigration. And, that is what you’re not adding to your calculation, what seemingly everyone on the left misses in every calculation on Trump is looking at the other party.
Most, meaning the enormous, enormous, enormous proportion of the population sits somewhere in the middle of these candidates. (Absolutely exploding the median voter theory of politics). Trump has his strong, idiotically structured, views on immigration, but, I think what most people get out of it is, “he realizes there are criminals in immigrants, he realizes there are potential economic issues (especially in regards to social programs which I don’t understand why it’s not mentioned more frequently), there are potential cultural issues”. When people look at the Biden stance I think they see, “oh, these people are utopians living in a fantasy land where immigrants are 100% good and there are no potential downsides to more”.
For most people in the middle, I believe they see Trump and almost entirely process it as “he sees there are potential issues, the other guy is in fantasy land. I’m going to go with the guy who is closer to reality even if I don’t agree with him”. And that’s it.
And to your crime point. I also don’t believe that immigrants commit more crime than citizens. However, immigrants aren’t citizens and we don’t have to accept that crime. You’re going to be way more forgiving with a family member and their actions than a stranger. Also, you’re stuck with the family member. You’re not stuck with the stranger. It is also not a made up point, as we just found out when 8 ISIS terrorists plotting a bombing were just arrested and found to have crossed into the country at the southern border.
On the cultural front, Strange Death of Europe was laughed at everywhere left of center. Now the issues described in the book are recurring and constant among the voters in each country. Little Mogadishu is not a laughable right wing fever dream anymore. But further, the foreigners protesting for terrorist organizations on our college campuses is not a laughable right wing fever dream anymore. Similar to above, I fully recognize we have a substantial home grown population of citizens that will fill this role; however, again it is not something we have to accept.
To the economic issues. I don’t think any data on employment or lowering wages is at all compelling or worthwhile. What I do think is compelling is housing immigrants, immigrant children flooding into already terribly under serviced education systems worsening the quality for the already disadvantaged students of society even more. The social programs for immigrants that are stressing welfare systems. Shelters that are full and cannot house homeless anymore. Etc.
Again, bad and worsening education systems, poor affordable housing, under funded and poorly structured social safety nets, poor services for the homeless, etc. all are issues we have already. Immigrants are certainly stressing them even more as I can see clear as day here in Chicago. Saying the opposite is to ask me not to believe my lying eyes.
To conclude, people (especially on the left) look at Trump in a bubble and go “look how insane this is”. The majority of people in the middle look at their two options and judge Biden policies to be even more insane, if his rhetoric is more appropriate. But, even on the rhetoric side, another example. Trump says disgusting shit, certainly. Biden fails to say anything at all that is coherent. I think people view those as pretty comparably insane options. Would you rather have a racist leader talking to foreign countries? Or, would you rather have a leader who cannot form a sentence and process information talking to foreign countries? 10 years ago I’d probably say the dullard idiot. Now with pretty major foreign conflicts popping up left and right, I’d maybe pick the racist who can think, hoping that he capable of holding his tongue over the dullard that just gets steamrolled by foreign countries guaranteeing we follow a terrible path.
Other comparisons I think people hold:
Trumps a racist vs Biden literally and unquestionably structures his administration by race. Is one really objectively worse than the other?
Trumps a liability with foreign policy vs Biden’s foreign policy by many centrists is considered potentially worst in U.S. history. Maybe only comparable to Woodrow Wilson.
Trump is divisive vs a Biden where I literally cannot comprehend how this is still a point against Trump. He actively hates half the country. He adds it to his speeches. Anyone who doesn’t agree with his political policies he routinely calls outright or implies otherwise are bigots or racists. The wealthy are parasites on society. The people who want cheap energy are idiots who don’t accept science. The people who have made their own judgement on their health are people who are okay killing their family and strangers. Etc etc etc. His rhetoric in any other era before Trump would be the most divisive rhetoric in US politics. You can say trump is to blame for that. But it still exists.
Trump lies vs Biden whose entire administration is one big lie. Inflation reduction act, temporary inflation, pull out from Afghanistan, Ukraine support, Israel support, goals of Hamas, racial divides in society on every level, Trump wrongdoing, Hunter wrongdoing, everything every opponent of theirs has said is outright lied about. Etc.
Trump doesn’t follow the rule of law vs Biden who openly violates the rule of law constantly.
People on the left especially still somehow see this as Trump vs Old Uncle Joe. This nice, although slow, nothing of a candidate. I don’t think the majority of people see that anymore. They see Trump, vs a mean, corrupt, vile, vindictive, dullard, liar of a career politician.
None of this is to excuse Trump. I have been saying until 2 weeks ago I could never vote for Trump. I hate the man and hope he careens off a cliff.
But, that is not the point. The point is people have to choose between two absolutely abysmal choices. And, yes the true MAGA crowd is nuts. But, people like Sam Harris (who I listen to frequently and like but has this similar blind spot in my mind) will say something like “half the country is part of a cult of personality”. The people voting for Trump in the main are not part of MAGA. The vast majority of them are not. And, to my mind, the people choosing to still vote for Trump are 10x more clearheaded between the choices than those voting for Biden. For 8 years on an hourly basis every single deficiency of Trump has been hammered into their skull from every direction and they’re still judging him as a better option than Biden. The people voting for Biden are still sticking to absurdities like he’s good on foreign policy, he has a good economy, and he’s still functioning and has always had a stutter. Literally EVERY person I hear trying to support such claims for Biden I put into the “MAGA” level extremely delusional camp but on the left. And that isn’t just MSNBC and like HuffPo. That is CNN, NYT, WSJ (news, until like a week ago), and WaPo.
I could be entirely mistaken. But, when I weigh the ledgers of what side has more extremely delusional voters, I fall on Biden has more. Again, not because Trump doesn’t have extremely delusional voters, but because the Biden voter seemingly is so focused on Trump they do not see any of their own sides gaping deficiencies.
I agree with much of what you say, but still can bring myself not to skip that part of the ballot or vote for Kennedy just cuz. I will probably wait until he declares a veep. If he's smart enough to choose a more moderate, strong person who's not afraid to try to challenge his more narcissistic tendencies I may pull that lever., though I doubt it as he doesn't pIay well with others. Remember how quickly his first cabinet disbanded. I cared more about Congress and Cabinet in past, but all this use of Presidential powers scare me. Looks like you are also a fan of Douglas Murray who is one of my faves. If only Trump could surround himself and play well with those with Murray's or Niall Ferguson's intellect and demeanor.
Nancy. I still do not know if I’ll vote for Trump. I might do exactly what you suggest, abstain or vote Kennedy (even though I don’t like him either). I mentioned it was the first time I could think of voting for him. I think the conviction of Trump IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE is worse for the country than Jan 6th. I have read and listened to everyone from Elie Honig (CNN legal expert), Ilya Somin (supports the conviction while also saying it will certainly fall under appeal because of all the legal problems), Andrew McCarthy (conservative who supported Trump impeachment), David French (Never Trump conservative), Sarah Isgur, Mark Zauderer, and many more from across the political spectrum. And, the safest read I have gotten from any is Somin who said “it certainly looks like a politically targeted conviction but that is very hard to prove legally”. Every other expert across the spectrum have basically conceded (more or less) it is a politically targeted conviction.
I hate Trump. Again, hope he careens off a cliff. Also think he deserves to be convicted in many of the cases against him. But THIS one? Are you serious? A completely novel legal theory in the jurisdiction, on a state level past the statute of limitations wrapped in a federal crime where they may not have jurisdiction, with jury instructions that 95% of laymen observe as blatantly unconstitutional, tied in a bow of contorted legalese binding each part of Frankensteins monster together. THAT is the basis for convicting your political opponent of a felony?
The Rubicon has been crossed. For me open legal targeting of political opponents is now firmly on the table as a tool to use (White House involvement or not doesn’t impact me at all). Which not only is at its first level a disaster of trying to jail opponents. At the second level is even a bigger disaster. Jail time or no jail time, Trump loses this election he can call “election interference” and be RIGHT. It will no longer be a delusion of the MAGA idiots. It will be a fact as clear as day. The political opponents of Trump convicted him of a felony in a bogus trial and impacted his election chances. What the hell else are you supposed to call that? And, the insane thing is I don’t know if it is better he is acquitted on appeal (admitting to the election interference) or convicted on appeal (confirming the use of the legal system as a political tool - this is not saying a conviction confirms the fraudulent nature of the court. It is stating the obvious fact that Bragg has prosecutorial discretion, and waited 7 years to bring charges, immediately in front of an election. Even if ruled LEGALLY sound, still undeniably being used as a political tool. Could have easily brought the case a year ago and allowed for a different candidate).
We are so unbelievably fucked in this upcoming election. And the greatest step in that fuckery has come from the left in their childish flailing against Trump. I cannot stomach that and the reason I can put Trump back on the table as a possibility is as a complete and utter “Fuck you!” to the left and Biden. You can’t campaign on “he’s going to destroy democracy!” as you attempt to jail your opponents. That is so incredibly egregious and this will be felt I think for generations. January 6th I think is already not a force to be wielded again. What? Crazy freaks did some horrible shit for a few hours, were stopped, one killed, and ton more put in jail after not accomplishing anything at all. Yes, a huge breaking of norms. Yes, very bad. What is the FUTURE strategy using from Jan 6th? The fact nothing was accomplished and a lot of people ruined their lives for no purpose?
Trump loses this election for any reason (could shit himself and face plant in his own feces on TV), and this becomes a tool for BOTH SIDES in every future election.
That is why Trump is on the table for me. Literally nothing else.
Can't agree more with your reasoning. Using the legal system on any level as a political tool is a great fear for me. It is most likely a pipe dream that Trump will have people in place who can appeal to his better angels and convince him not to go on a retaliatory rampage. Or if Biden wins, his cronies also do not see victory as a referendum to continue same or even use the legal system against the "anti-woke". For me, if I vote for him at all (A BIG IF) it would be for his fiscal policies vs Biden. So much more successful first time around. To me, if policies were based more on economics & fiscal soundness, much of the social issues could take care of themselves.
The failure to make the key distinction between illegal immigration and legal immigration continues to amaze and disappoint me. Glenn, you know this distinction is essential in this discussion. Why just glide right over it? I think it's safe to say that a clear majority of Americans are very supportive of legal immigration from all parts of the world. Things change when the topic changes to illegal immigration. And they get downright nasty when that distinction is ignored, intentionally or unintentionally. It is simply meaningless to discuss Trump's views on immigration without acknowledging this.
Tyler 70,000 Afghanistan’s have been murdered. The govt is sending $43-87 MILLION dollars a WEEK to the Taliban. 20,000 of our Afghanistan allies have disappeared. The entire country is now training terrorists from every group, Bin Laden’s son has received MILLIONS from the US and the US is paying terrorists families whose family member died while trying to kill our service members a stipend every month. Maybe you want to watch Shawn Ryan and the CIA Targetor Amanda on You Tube. There are 3 seperate episodes. https://youtube.com/shorts/CIARjpa5S6c?si=6l7nK-woFHwPweTe
John, because you don’t choose to see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening . When it’s your child I’m certain you will have a different view of illegals. Also, when countries release all of their criminals and they walk across our border, we don’t even know they are criminals. We also have thousands who are not on the watch list because we don’t even know they are terrorists. Who’s the child? The one who chooses to bury their head. The lack of factual data, which has been un covered out of the govt own mouth in court documents, in this conversation is astonishing.
Where do John and Glenn get their news. Jan 6th and election fraud, have neither of you kept up with the 100’s of documents obtained thru FOIA for both? Hillary, Biden and Obama concocted the Russia hoax against Trump. Watch Shawn Ryan and the CIA Targetor (3 episodes) so you both can realize the danger we are in.
I had heard from conservative political analysts that Democrats believed that Trump was this uniquely grotesque political figure that deserved this exceptional level of political and personal persecution and that once he was destroyed, American politics would return to a more congenial "normality". I didn't believe that anyone of any intelligence could actually believe that was true. John has proven me wrong.
Dear Glenn and John,
You two never fail to leave me more encouraged and hopeful each time I listen to your exchanges❣️
As a 66 year old, white, conservative female voter raised in Mississippi, I’m painfully aware of the unfair prejudice I might face when some read the information I have just shared.
As someone who has never felt as if I fit neatly into one political camp or the other (like SO MANY American voters), one of my deepest disappointments throughout the past several years of political turmoil has been the removal of “my rose-colored glasses”.
Born in 1958 in Northern Italy to a handsome American Air Force enlistee and a young Italian Beauty, my father brought us “home” to
Mississippi when I was less than a month old.
Being raised in our home meant being taught about the beauty and worth of each human being regardless of the color of their skin (red blood runs through ALL of our veins), the country of origin, chosen religion, and the varied economic status of individuals. Unkindness and disrespect toward others was NOT tolerated.
Non of the above mentioned elements alone make a person WHO they are; it is the CHARACTER of each individual and the way that they treat others that tells me the most about who deserves my honor and respect.
We were taught that God made each individual because of His Love for them, giving them special gifts and talents to be shared during their time on this earth for the good of all mankind. We are each uniquely and wonderfully made and there is no other exactly like us.
To see, on the scale made available to us via media, the overwhelming anger, frustration, distrust and UNFAIR JUDGEMENT of others, one to the other solely based on their vote, left me in disbelief. WHY were citizens so willing to “assume” things about another person they know NOTHING about, treating them with blind disdain and hatred?!
This seems like the epitome of ignorance to me.
I was SHOCKED and DISMAYED to find dear friends abandoning me based on ONLY ONE element of my overall personhood, 💔 my privilege and right to vote my own conscience.
Thankfully, I was made aware of BRAVER ANGELS
(www.braverangels.org) which brings people from across the U.S. (and World!) to have CIVIL and CURIOUS Conversations. helping us to get to know and understand others with whom we disagree. Braver Angels restored my faith in mankind❣️
Thank you both, so very much, for sharing your insightful and wise perspectives. 🙏🏻 💕
Dear Glenn,
Welcome back, hope your recovery is smooth and swift. Somewhat off track but still in the ballpark comment to follow.
It is remarkable how many very intelligent commenters seem to gloss over the avalanche of lies that have been sold about Trump. John, how are people to gauge truth value of claims that he’s “a danger to our democracy”, when those promoting this apocolyptic claim, are willing to swallow the Steele dossier, the pee tape, Russia collusion, etc, without a decent review of the dirty tricks campaign to disable his candidacy? I swear in good faith, the hysterical polemics would cut more ice with me, if we had not been lied to about serious matters first, that our leaders and media outlets gave so much credence to.
The above are only a small sample of partisan use of false stories to smear the reputation and hobble the administration of a duly elected president. That truly strains my patience, as false accusations and propaganda are the real threat to democracy. It is unprecidented, and for students of ancient history, the Clinton's network of politiical/media allies are the megaphone that drove the bus.
I’ll keep it simple. Even if his haters brought the goods, which they have failed to do, so far, despite years of expensive DOJ scrutiny, CIA SNOOPING, and two impeachments, Donald Trump was always my last choice. The Clintons are neck deep in starting this soap opera. Trump spared me living under another Clinton for eight years. And in my world, that earns alot of forgiveness. I don't care about click bait, scurrilous accusations of a personal nature, under these circumstances. After all, if a few are even remotely credible, I’m voting for a president, not a pope. If he's an arm twister, not breaker, he's qualified for the job. And under relentless attack, his administration delivered the policies that produced less regulation, a strong economy, jobs, lower taxes, American energy independece, gas @ $2,79 in Cali, and one more thing - a six - three majority. He's still the better choice among those available. Are you excited about a President Harris. I rest my case.
Climate change catastrophe is an unfalsifiable proposition. And the scaremongering by true believers is governed by the principle - Heads I win - tails you lose. So there, climate hysterics.
Honestly? It is not even worth it at this point =)
Remember when Denver talk radio host Ken Hamlin would say, "Pick a better country?" Well, it has become increasingly easy to think as such.
If I have to explain why POTUS Trump Season II is a problem, that's the problem. If I can't call a spade a spade without folks declaring "Trump Derangement Syndrome🤡", that's the problem.
This is not about Donald Trump and never was. It is about his effect on the American culture.
It is *not* about "policy". Even the GOP knows that. Remember the 2020 Republican Convention, when they failed to adopt a position platform? It made perfect sense. They didn't need one. It didn't make any difference, because it's not about policy. It is about what Trump represents in the eyes of *many* of his supporters: A revanchist fantasy, a cudgel to bludgeon that which they hate, and so forth.
Is the left in any way culpable? Of course, and to a significant extent. But that is hardly an excuse for the endless cluster**** we see in the GOP today.
Dr. G, you said something like, "John, it should be easy to convince the electorate if Trump is THAT bad." But that's not realistic. You are giving the American people way too much credit, especially on the right.
Wanna know why Democrats struggle to sway certain people? Because certain people aren't swayable. More importantly, the GOP vis-à-vis Trump has the luxury of not having to posit arguments. Trump's symbolism and cult of personality is all they need and the leaders of the Party know that.
And talk about hypocrisy. How many times have we heard folks on the right say things like: "The Democrats take the Black vote for granted. And since Black people are gonna vote Democrat no matter what, why bother?"
Welcome to the same movie; different characters. But arguably worse.
It doesn't matter what Trump (or Biden for that matter) says or does at this point. A huge slice of the American pie is committed to Trump, and if he loses, he's not bowing out gracefully. We know this. Trump will (again) claim another "stolen election", but with an even more loyal GOP by his side; he has them in the palm of his hands.
And by the way, the man clearly has a few mental issues. Yet somewhere between a third and half of the electorate want him in charge of our nuclear weapons.
It is not that hard to fathom why POTUS Trump Season II could be a threat to US democracy.
The difficulty I find in your statements, Charles, is your “blanket criticism” of ALL Conservative Voters. So many who speak about Trump and his “deplorable” and (in the estimation of so many Democrats) ignorant supporters, seem to be ignoring the “log” in their own party’s eye.
I could NOT stand Trump when he first appeared on the political stage. I was incredulous at some of his unkind and disrespectful interactions.
I struggled MIGHTILY in deciding who to vote for.
BUT, as I began to watch the Democratic Leadership more closely and their own actions, I realized that, for me, they seem to pose a bigger threat to the health of our Country and her citizens. The DEEP HATRED for Trump (“Trump Derangement Syndrome”) which I initially thought was ridiculous, soon began to, seemingly, prove true.
Even more hurtful and disappointing is the DISRESPECT and open blanket Criticism they have shown for American Citizens not voting their party line. Blues began to “eat their own” over even a hint of understanding toward Reds. I know MANY Blues who are now Red or Independent.
Biden’s past 4 years, beginning with the Dems refusal to condemn the extreme actions of the far left, standing by idly as Democratic supporters bullied, cancelled, demeaned and made ignorant assumptions about their fellow voting citizens for whom they knew NOTHING about EXCEPT their vote for Trump, showed me that there have been few “Heroes” willing to help save our Nation from the bitter divide. (Although, through BRAVER ANGELS I have found BRAVE Legislators on both sides of the aisle!)
UNTIL I get to KNOW more about another person, I have very little on which to judge their Character. I might not like their choice of Presidential Candidate, but that alone tells me VERY LITTLE about someone as a WHOLE person.
I STILL have issues with Trump but, after four years of a Biden Whitehouse, the Dems scare me, personally, MUCH MORE than Trump.
I’m deeply disappointed in those on both sides who refuse to stand for “We The People”, Red, Blue or Independent.
Please, God, Save America. 🙏🏻
Please check out BRAVER ANGELS (www.braverangels.org) to find Americans (and others!) willing to have CIVIL and CURIOUS Conversations to learn more about those with whom we don’t fully agree. I believe you will be GREATLY ENCOURAGED by the work this Important Organization is doing.
"your “blanket criticism” of ALL Conservative Voters"
Rita, when did I do this? (And no, I am not trying to be facetious or coy.)
I re-read my post to see if your claim was valid. It's not.
I didn't pull any punches. I will concede that. But I didn't even *use* the word conservative. Not once. In fact, I kind of went out of my way to NOT criticize "all", using qualifiers like "*MANY* of his supporters", "certain people", etc.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but a LOT of my views are conservative, based on the *old* meaning. (I am not sure WHAT "conservative" means *these* days.)
I used to *proudly* call myself a "Black conservative" back in the day. Fwiw, some of my best friends--specifically two people--are or were Trump supporters. I am the last person who will label ALL of *anything* as all good or all bad.
I am not a Democrat. I am not a liberal. I am not a man of the left. I don't know too many Dems who hate affirmative action the way I do. I don't know too many leftists who promote the free market the way I do. But if you ask me, none of that is relevant here.
Look at what the American right has become over the past decade, especially vis-à-vis Donald Trump. That is *my* point ultimately. Look at the effects on the overall culture, politically and otherwise. I can't even watch a basketball game without dudes trying to make Caitlin Clark into their new culture war symbol. It's childish and pathetic.
And I don't see the logic in voting for someone with the temperament of a Donald Trump. Again, nuclear weapons matter. When a choice is as binary and consequential as this one, nuance needs to take a back seat. Just my opinion.
Lastly, I know about Braver Angels. John Wood has my utmost respect.
I am more than capable of having a calm, fair-minded conversation, Rita. But like McWhorter, I have to ask at some point, where do we draw the line?
We don't have to agree about where we draw our respective lines.
I'm with John on why Trump is unfit for office and Glenn, you are really blind if you can't see it. Yes, I know Trump actually has some attractive ideas--he's right about stanching the hemorrhage of unfiltered wannabe citizens at the border, and he's against a lot of trans nonsense which I will be happy to see him kick out the door--and I'm a left-leaner. Trump can have a few good ideas (no one's a *complete* idiot) while still being unfit for office--in Trump's case, morally unfit and now legally compromised, even if it's ruled he can run for office (I'm not sure that's been determined yet). You can moan about how it's all about politics and you're right (so is Hunter Biden's conviction, baldly) but the fact still remains that *both* men broke laws and everyone should be accountable, and I'd rather debate *why* it took so long for either of them rather than waiting until either case looks politically motivated.
But Trump is still Trump, and has never been truly qualified to be President. Everyone knows it and I think you do too, Glenn. I will cheer a few things Trump does if he gets elected, and probably mourn or criticize many more, but in November I'll vote for the crazy brainworm guy. I can't see how anyone in good conscience can vote for Trump, and Biden & the Democrats don't look any better either--simply for different reasons.
John stated the one entirely sufficient reason that Trump is unfit for office: he refused to accept the results of a legitimate election and tried to overturn it. Accepting the results of an election is the rock-bottom minimum requirement for elective office. Compared to that, nothing else matters. And to Glenn's claim that "we made it through just fine", failing to accept an election result is something that can only happen at the end of a term.
Would like to thank Glenn for the novel idea of the “bad hombre” defense
Should John admit that he has TDS? It is, at least, some excuse for publicly announcing that you wish someone would murder Trump. I can’t help but wonder what John really thinks of someone that would vote for Trump. Perhaps just a serious wounding?
Fascinating conversation. Thank you both.
As far as impact of Kendi's ideas.... one only needs to look at the educational system. Especially K-12 districts
Each time John talks about Trump, my respect for John's intellect and objectivity takes a hit. He is almost at the level of Deniro TDS. But I dont even think that Deniro went as far as seemingly wanting to kill Trump himself or have someone kill Trump.... That part that John stumbles through needs to be clarified. I was like wtf did he just allude to
John, to your Trump immigrant point. You are outlining that Trump has a incredibly unique immigration outlook that that is unprecedented.
While it may be unique on the right, it is certainly not unique in politics. And, I think that is what you’re not including in your calculus.
The Biden admin for all intents and purposes is functioning as an open borders administration. That, for all your upset on Trumps end, is an equally unique and unprecedented stance on immigration. And, that is what you’re not adding to your calculation, what seemingly everyone on the left misses in every calculation on Trump is looking at the other party.
Most, meaning the enormous, enormous, enormous proportion of the population sits somewhere in the middle of these candidates. (Absolutely exploding the median voter theory of politics). Trump has his strong, idiotically structured, views on immigration, but, I think what most people get out of it is, “he realizes there are criminals in immigrants, he realizes there are potential economic issues (especially in regards to social programs which I don’t understand why it’s not mentioned more frequently), there are potential cultural issues”. When people look at the Biden stance I think they see, “oh, these people are utopians living in a fantasy land where immigrants are 100% good and there are no potential downsides to more”.
For most people in the middle, I believe they see Trump and almost entirely process it as “he sees there are potential issues, the other guy is in fantasy land. I’m going to go with the guy who is closer to reality even if I don’t agree with him”. And that’s it.
And to your crime point. I also don’t believe that immigrants commit more crime than citizens. However, immigrants aren’t citizens and we don’t have to accept that crime. You’re going to be way more forgiving with a family member and their actions than a stranger. Also, you’re stuck with the family member. You’re not stuck with the stranger. It is also not a made up point, as we just found out when 8 ISIS terrorists plotting a bombing were just arrested and found to have crossed into the country at the southern border.
On the cultural front, Strange Death of Europe was laughed at everywhere left of center. Now the issues described in the book are recurring and constant among the voters in each country. Little Mogadishu is not a laughable right wing fever dream anymore. But further, the foreigners protesting for terrorist organizations on our college campuses is not a laughable right wing fever dream anymore. Similar to above, I fully recognize we have a substantial home grown population of citizens that will fill this role; however, again it is not something we have to accept.
To the economic issues. I don’t think any data on employment or lowering wages is at all compelling or worthwhile. What I do think is compelling is housing immigrants, immigrant children flooding into already terribly under serviced education systems worsening the quality for the already disadvantaged students of society even more. The social programs for immigrants that are stressing welfare systems. Shelters that are full and cannot house homeless anymore. Etc.
Again, bad and worsening education systems, poor affordable housing, under funded and poorly structured social safety nets, poor services for the homeless, etc. all are issues we have already. Immigrants are certainly stressing them even more as I can see clear as day here in Chicago. Saying the opposite is to ask me not to believe my lying eyes.
To conclude, people (especially on the left) look at Trump in a bubble and go “look how insane this is”. The majority of people in the middle look at their two options and judge Biden policies to be even more insane, if his rhetoric is more appropriate. But, even on the rhetoric side, another example. Trump says disgusting shit, certainly. Biden fails to say anything at all that is coherent. I think people view those as pretty comparably insane options. Would you rather have a racist leader talking to foreign countries? Or, would you rather have a leader who cannot form a sentence and process information talking to foreign countries? 10 years ago I’d probably say the dullard idiot. Now with pretty major foreign conflicts popping up left and right, I’d maybe pick the racist who can think, hoping that he capable of holding his tongue over the dullard that just gets steamrolled by foreign countries guaranteeing we follow a terrible path.
Other comparisons I think people hold:
Trumps a racist vs Biden literally and unquestionably structures his administration by race. Is one really objectively worse than the other?
Trumps a liability with foreign policy vs Biden’s foreign policy by many centrists is considered potentially worst in U.S. history. Maybe only comparable to Woodrow Wilson.
Trump is divisive vs a Biden where I literally cannot comprehend how this is still a point against Trump. He actively hates half the country. He adds it to his speeches. Anyone who doesn’t agree with his political policies he routinely calls outright or implies otherwise are bigots or racists. The wealthy are parasites on society. The people who want cheap energy are idiots who don’t accept science. The people who have made their own judgement on their health are people who are okay killing their family and strangers. Etc etc etc. His rhetoric in any other era before Trump would be the most divisive rhetoric in US politics. You can say trump is to blame for that. But it still exists.
Trump lies vs Biden whose entire administration is one big lie. Inflation reduction act, temporary inflation, pull out from Afghanistan, Ukraine support, Israel support, goals of Hamas, racial divides in society on every level, Trump wrongdoing, Hunter wrongdoing, everything every opponent of theirs has said is outright lied about. Etc.
Trump doesn’t follow the rule of law vs Biden who openly violates the rule of law constantly.
People on the left especially still somehow see this as Trump vs Old Uncle Joe. This nice, although slow, nothing of a candidate. I don’t think the majority of people see that anymore. They see Trump, vs a mean, corrupt, vile, vindictive, dullard, liar of a career politician.
None of this is to excuse Trump. I have been saying until 2 weeks ago I could never vote for Trump. I hate the man and hope he careens off a cliff.
But, that is not the point. The point is people have to choose between two absolutely abysmal choices. And, yes the true MAGA crowd is nuts. But, people like Sam Harris (who I listen to frequently and like but has this similar blind spot in my mind) will say something like “half the country is part of a cult of personality”. The people voting for Trump in the main are not part of MAGA. The vast majority of them are not. And, to my mind, the people choosing to still vote for Trump are 10x more clearheaded between the choices than those voting for Biden. For 8 years on an hourly basis every single deficiency of Trump has been hammered into their skull from every direction and they’re still judging him as a better option than Biden. The people voting for Biden are still sticking to absurdities like he’s good on foreign policy, he has a good economy, and he’s still functioning and has always had a stutter. Literally EVERY person I hear trying to support such claims for Biden I put into the “MAGA” level extremely delusional camp but on the left. And that isn’t just MSNBC and like HuffPo. That is CNN, NYT, WSJ (news, until like a week ago), and WaPo.
I could be entirely mistaken. But, when I weigh the ledgers of what side has more extremely delusional voters, I fall on Biden has more. Again, not because Trump doesn’t have extremely delusional voters, but because the Biden voter seemingly is so focused on Trump they do not see any of their own sides gaping deficiencies.
Thank you, Tyler, for speaking the Truth for MANY people!
I agree with much of what you say, but still can bring myself not to skip that part of the ballot or vote for Kennedy just cuz. I will probably wait until he declares a veep. If he's smart enough to choose a more moderate, strong person who's not afraid to try to challenge his more narcissistic tendencies I may pull that lever., though I doubt it as he doesn't pIay well with others. Remember how quickly his first cabinet disbanded. I cared more about Congress and Cabinet in past, but all this use of Presidential powers scare me. Looks like you are also a fan of Douglas Murray who is one of my faves. If only Trump could surround himself and play well with those with Murray's or Niall Ferguson's intellect and demeanor.
Well said, Nancy.
Nancy. I still do not know if I’ll vote for Trump. I might do exactly what you suggest, abstain or vote Kennedy (even though I don’t like him either). I mentioned it was the first time I could think of voting for him. I think the conviction of Trump IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE is worse for the country than Jan 6th. I have read and listened to everyone from Elie Honig (CNN legal expert), Ilya Somin (supports the conviction while also saying it will certainly fall under appeal because of all the legal problems), Andrew McCarthy (conservative who supported Trump impeachment), David French (Never Trump conservative), Sarah Isgur, Mark Zauderer, and many more from across the political spectrum. And, the safest read I have gotten from any is Somin who said “it certainly looks like a politically targeted conviction but that is very hard to prove legally”. Every other expert across the spectrum have basically conceded (more or less) it is a politically targeted conviction.
I hate Trump. Again, hope he careens off a cliff. Also think he deserves to be convicted in many of the cases against him. But THIS one? Are you serious? A completely novel legal theory in the jurisdiction, on a state level past the statute of limitations wrapped in a federal crime where they may not have jurisdiction, with jury instructions that 95% of laymen observe as blatantly unconstitutional, tied in a bow of contorted legalese binding each part of Frankensteins monster together. THAT is the basis for convicting your political opponent of a felony?
The Rubicon has been crossed. For me open legal targeting of political opponents is now firmly on the table as a tool to use (White House involvement or not doesn’t impact me at all). Which not only is at its first level a disaster of trying to jail opponents. At the second level is even a bigger disaster. Jail time or no jail time, Trump loses this election he can call “election interference” and be RIGHT. It will no longer be a delusion of the MAGA idiots. It will be a fact as clear as day. The political opponents of Trump convicted him of a felony in a bogus trial and impacted his election chances. What the hell else are you supposed to call that? And, the insane thing is I don’t know if it is better he is acquitted on appeal (admitting to the election interference) or convicted on appeal (confirming the use of the legal system as a political tool - this is not saying a conviction confirms the fraudulent nature of the court. It is stating the obvious fact that Bragg has prosecutorial discretion, and waited 7 years to bring charges, immediately in front of an election. Even if ruled LEGALLY sound, still undeniably being used as a political tool. Could have easily brought the case a year ago and allowed for a different candidate).
We are so unbelievably fucked in this upcoming election. And the greatest step in that fuckery has come from the left in their childish flailing against Trump. I cannot stomach that and the reason I can put Trump back on the table as a possibility is as a complete and utter “Fuck you!” to the left and Biden. You can’t campaign on “he’s going to destroy democracy!” as you attempt to jail your opponents. That is so incredibly egregious and this will be felt I think for generations. January 6th I think is already not a force to be wielded again. What? Crazy freaks did some horrible shit for a few hours, were stopped, one killed, and ton more put in jail after not accomplishing anything at all. Yes, a huge breaking of norms. Yes, very bad. What is the FUTURE strategy using from Jan 6th? The fact nothing was accomplished and a lot of people ruined their lives for no purpose?
Trump loses this election for any reason (could shit himself and face plant in his own feces on TV), and this becomes a tool for BOTH SIDES in every future election.
That is why Trump is on the table for me. Literally nothing else.
Can't agree more with your reasoning. Using the legal system on any level as a political tool is a great fear for me. It is most likely a pipe dream that Trump will have people in place who can appeal to his better angels and convince him not to go on a retaliatory rampage. Or if Biden wins, his cronies also do not see victory as a referendum to continue same or even use the legal system against the "anti-woke". For me, if I vote for him at all (A BIG IF) it would be for his fiscal policies vs Biden. So much more successful first time around. To me, if policies were based more on economics & fiscal soundness, much of the social issues could take care of themselves.