"It is often argued that it is unfair to compare black students to immigrants, because they had a particularly pronounced incentive to come here and are therefore likely to push their kids harder than we have a right to expect native-born parents to. There is merit to the observation..." Why? Pushing your kids *hard* is something white and Asian parents often do, and that's why their kids succeed. Why can't we 'expect' black parents to do the same?
As you and Glenn have often noted, black immigrant families from countries with slavery legacy nevertheless do much better than their AA peers here *because their parents push them*. Once again, a problem that *black people* can solve. It's not racism or this allegedly all-pervasive 'white supremacy stacked against us' that's holding them back, it's not trying her in school and to ignore the malign influences of those around them.
I was a graduate student at a UC campus in the mid-80's. My roommate was a first year med student. One Friday evening, I joined a group of his classmates for beer. They joking referred to themselves as "minority" students. My roommate confided a small, nagging envy. The "majority" students knew they were there based on individual talent and accomplishment. He would never know how his race influenced in his admission. He was robbed of the assurance that he, as an individual, met the standard. His "minority" classmates silently concurred. A lifetime of doubt.
“Dispreferenced”? It seems obvious to me he is referencing Kendi’s philosophy that the only way to remedy discrimination is discrimination. Why does John try to change what is currently going on with racial discrimination against whites and asians as “dispreference”? Call it what it is…. Discrimination… being a linguist, John’s knows the impact of the word “discrimination” why is he trying to soften the impact of what is happening?
I will leave it to the stakeholders to decide if affirmative action should end. John being one and the few in the comments here apparently believe it should end and that is all well and good. But if you think it will make the racists here and elsewhere hate you any less you are sadly mistaken.
I had forgotten about this segment with Glenn and John. I don't know how because it has to be one of my all-time favorites.
As a teen matriculating into college in '83, I was confronted with these feelings big-time, and so were most of my peers. It was an experience that ultimately led to my later and permanent disdain for affirmative action policies, particularly the ones that focused on African-Americans.
*Before* my friends and I entered (predominately White) colleges and universities, we believed we were ready because our elders led us to believe just that. But in most cases, it took less than a semester for us to realize we had been hoodwinked so to speak. And suddenly, you are this kid having to face some really deep insecurities.
We have all experienced some version of this, but this is different. Instead of being forced to rise up and confront the issue as is, pass or fail, you are instead immediately embraced by this mesmerizing culture of progressive excuse-making and patronizing, which feels pretty good at first and even empowering later on. But deep down, somehow or another, you realize it's a false power. But one that nevertheless sustains indefinitely until you finally decide to break free and deal with reality.
If and when you ever do, it's pretty late in the game. I hate to be cliché and say, "It's a vicious cycle", but it is.
And the irony is crazy. This nonsense not only affects African-Americans negatively under the guise of helping, but it simultaneously feeds into the most basic beliefs of true-blue White racists.
If and when you ever do finally wake up and achieve, legitimately, real empowerment sets in, and it's a much better feeling. Trust me.
Yet still, you cannot fully escape the frustrations that come with observing generations behind you experiencing a similar madness; in some cases, for less legitimate reasons.
Fact: There are people in this world who genuinely believe that Black people are innately inferior intellectually and that there is nothing anybody can do about it. There are also people who believe quite strongly that White people are innately and *especially* gifted intellectually. (And it's not just White people who buy into these ideas.)
To be blunt, I am definitely not one of those people. In fact, in my experience, many of the folks who believe as such are typically not very deep thinkers. (I am trying to be nice here.) I would even venture to say that a lot of them are dealing with their own versions of inferiority complex.
That said, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because if you are a serious person--or a serious people--realizing other people have self-esteem issues will never cure your own. We must all deal with our own issues of insecurity and underachievement, one way or another; but preferably in ways that achieve genuine, positive results.
The racial preferences argument that McWhorter critiques is based on reasons for disadvantage. Reasons are vulnerable to glass half-full/empty perception and are ad-hoc or random. I suggest the racial preferences advocates create a structured argument based on rules, where “disadvantage X violates fairness rule Y”. APA should offer guidance.
An APA-mentored structure should categorize official vs. unofficial privilege. Officially, I can drive a car, vote, enter a nightclub and buy alcohol, tobacco, firearms because I am over 21; official privilege.
On alleged “advantage” of immigration-incentivized families; there is much cultural and historical variation. Some children of immigrants that I know will be lucky if they can complete a remedial high-school equivalency program.
Pushing a kid, any kid, into a pool that is above his competitive ability, is a bad idea. Marxism traveled on the rails that you “pull down” from envy that which you cannot “push up” through additional effort. But the undeserving scholar, athlete or anything else will still be just an opportunity for someone else that was thrown away out of signaling.
I'm 72 years old, and learned through hard experience to never play by your adversaries' rules. Play in the real world! I worked in a very ruthless organization that didn't give a rat's ass about meritocracy or facts.
I couldn't read the entire article because I refuse to pay The Atlantic for anything. I think John is using his own family experience as both a child and a parent to say that there are some Black kids whose experience is similar enough to the white kids with whom they attend school that they should be judged exactly the same--also the kid a few shows ago who was confused, "Am I oppressed?" But there are probably some other middle-class Black kids who don't have family networks that know a lot about the college application process (or even who will say to them, "Ta-Nehisi. You're not going to 13th grade." It was a great line on the part of Coates, Sr., what can I say?) who don't know what their grades and test scores would get them into even if affirmative action didn't exist. Other kids may be treated identically with poor Black kids by the schools they attend for a whole host of reasons.
Imagine a world where every American child had access to top tier education, athletics and three healthy meals a day. Instead we get bussing, affirmative action, racist math, and gay porn.
It is time everyone just realized this problem is not intended to be fixed, otherwise it would have been a long time ago.
Speaking from the outside, I believe racism today remains very much alive, in large part because all of us have been taught the idea of race is real. When you take a stand that race is a false idea, that it has no more intellectual validity than astrology, a new perspective can take hold, one with a jaw dropping realization of how incredibly stupid racism has been. Yes, we all knew it was vile but now we can add stupid. An example: Would you buy into the notion that Taurus people are meant for physical labor? Or that Sagittarius people are hot headed? Of course not. But for centuries people thought descendants of Africans were meant for physical labor. How stupid can you get?
60 years ago Affirmative Action was a decent start to remedy to this stupidity. Isn't it time to go after the root cause? Race is a */stupid idea/*; We are all equal in our humanity and deserve to be treated equally.
Tough standards, but infinite opportunity for those willing and wanting to learn the great arts and sciences of western and American civilization. This should include a liberal arts underpinning acquired in elementary and high school. For example knowledge of the history and biology of the human species and how we evolved from the slime, became primates in the Eden of Africa and then left and dispersed around the world. A high school degree should certify that a person understands how to read and write and speak the common language, but it should also indicate a knowledge of world history and of the founding and history of our own republic. All this so as to insure loyalty to the republic and knowledge of its constitution and the duties of a citizen. This is paramount for the conduct of public business the common good and our very survival during war. We need to keep our land and resources and military the best possible shape because of international competitive pressure which always increases. The rest of the world does not care about our decadent modern sentimentality. So american educational standards and methods must reflect the real world : many levels of certification are possible but each should. be set by a long historical tradition or an industry group or a union or a professional association. International or federal agencies can also set degree requirements for some professions. Socio-economic status or race should be used to allocate government aid among accepted applicants.
As a minority, I have always pushed myself to achieve. I have never expected special consideration for education or jobs.
Judge me on my abilities fairly is all I expected, and I have done well, with God's grace.
As John McWhorter says, we all have obstacles, but we have to figure out the part of the solution that depends on us (paraphrasing).
And yes I went through overt discrimination, but I had a drive -- no one can stop me from reaching my goals. I am nobody's victim!
Too bad , John, you can’t quite come out and say it: Rothstein believes Blacks have lower IQs but wants to pretend he doesn’t AND blame whites.
Colleges can’t solve the single parent problem, and that’s the biggest problem.
"It is often argued that it is unfair to compare black students to immigrants, because they had a particularly pronounced incentive to come here and are therefore likely to push their kids harder than we have a right to expect native-born parents to. There is merit to the observation..." Why? Pushing your kids *hard* is something white and Asian parents often do, and that's why their kids succeed. Why can't we 'expect' black parents to do the same?
As you and Glenn have often noted, black immigrant families from countries with slavery legacy nevertheless do much better than their AA peers here *because their parents push them*. Once again, a problem that *black people* can solve. It's not racism or this allegedly all-pervasive 'white supremacy stacked against us' that's holding them back, it's not trying her in school and to ignore the malign influences of those around them.
I was a graduate student at a UC campus in the mid-80's. My roommate was a first year med student. One Friday evening, I joined a group of his classmates for beer. They joking referred to themselves as "minority" students. My roommate confided a small, nagging envy. The "majority" students knew they were there based on individual talent and accomplishment. He would never know how his race influenced in his admission. He was robbed of the assurance that he, as an individual, met the standard. His "minority" classmates silently concurred. A lifetime of doubt.
“Dispreferenced”? It seems obvious to me he is referencing Kendi’s philosophy that the only way to remedy discrimination is discrimination. Why does John try to change what is currently going on with racial discrimination against whites and asians as “dispreference”? Call it what it is…. Discrimination… being a linguist, John’s knows the impact of the word “discrimination” why is he trying to soften the impact of what is happening?
I will leave it to the stakeholders to decide if affirmative action should end. John being one and the few in the comments here apparently believe it should end and that is all well and good. But if you think it will make the racists here and elsewhere hate you any less you are sadly mistaken.
A repost from "The Burden of Self-Knowledge" (a couple months ago).
Seemed relevant here. A personal story. Just for the hell of it.
_______________________________________________________________________________
CHARLES
Apr 16
edited Apr 16
I had forgotten about this segment with Glenn and John. I don't know how because it has to be one of my all-time favorites.
As a teen matriculating into college in '83, I was confronted with these feelings big-time, and so were most of my peers. It was an experience that ultimately led to my later and permanent disdain for affirmative action policies, particularly the ones that focused on African-Americans.
*Before* my friends and I entered (predominately White) colleges and universities, we believed we were ready because our elders led us to believe just that. But in most cases, it took less than a semester for us to realize we had been hoodwinked so to speak. And suddenly, you are this kid having to face some really deep insecurities.
We have all experienced some version of this, but this is different. Instead of being forced to rise up and confront the issue as is, pass or fail, you are instead immediately embraced by this mesmerizing culture of progressive excuse-making and patronizing, which feels pretty good at first and even empowering later on. But deep down, somehow or another, you realize it's a false power. But one that nevertheless sustains indefinitely until you finally decide to break free and deal with reality.
If and when you ever do, it's pretty late in the game. I hate to be cliché and say, "It's a vicious cycle", but it is.
And the irony is crazy. This nonsense not only affects African-Americans negatively under the guise of helping, but it simultaneously feeds into the most basic beliefs of true-blue White racists.
If and when you ever do finally wake up and achieve, legitimately, real empowerment sets in, and it's a much better feeling. Trust me.
Yet still, you cannot fully escape the frustrations that come with observing generations behind you experiencing a similar madness; in some cases, for less legitimate reasons.
Fact: There are people in this world who genuinely believe that Black people are innately inferior intellectually and that there is nothing anybody can do about it. There are also people who believe quite strongly that White people are innately and *especially* gifted intellectually. (And it's not just White people who buy into these ideas.)
To be blunt, I am definitely not one of those people. In fact, in my experience, many of the folks who believe as such are typically not very deep thinkers. (I am trying to be nice here.) I would even venture to say that a lot of them are dealing with their own versions of inferiority complex.
That said, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Because if you are a serious person--or a serious people--realizing other people have self-esteem issues will never cure your own. We must all deal with our own issues of insecurity and underachievement, one way or another; but preferably in ways that achieve genuine, positive results.
Or we can just keep going around in circles.
The racial preferences argument that McWhorter critiques is based on reasons for disadvantage. Reasons are vulnerable to glass half-full/empty perception and are ad-hoc or random. I suggest the racial preferences advocates create a structured argument based on rules, where “disadvantage X violates fairness rule Y”. APA should offer guidance.
An APA-mentored structure should categorize official vs. unofficial privilege. Officially, I can drive a car, vote, enter a nightclub and buy alcohol, tobacco, firearms because I am over 21; official privilege.
On alleged “advantage” of immigration-incentivized families; there is much cultural and historical variation. Some children of immigrants that I know will be lucky if they can complete a remedial high-school equivalency program.
Pushing a kid, any kid, into a pool that is above his competitive ability, is a bad idea. Marxism traveled on the rails that you “pull down” from envy that which you cannot “push up” through additional effort. But the undeserving scholar, athlete or anything else will still be just an opportunity for someone else that was thrown away out of signaling.
I'm 72 years old, and learned through hard experience to never play by your adversaries' rules. Play in the real world! I worked in a very ruthless organization that didn't give a rat's ass about meritocracy or facts.
Word. Affirmative action of any type (race-based, gender-based, sexuality-based, etc.) must be time-bound, not indefinite.
I couldn't read the entire article because I refuse to pay The Atlantic for anything. I think John is using his own family experience as both a child and a parent to say that there are some Black kids whose experience is similar enough to the white kids with whom they attend school that they should be judged exactly the same--also the kid a few shows ago who was confused, "Am I oppressed?" But there are probably some other middle-class Black kids who don't have family networks that know a lot about the college application process (or even who will say to them, "Ta-Nehisi. You're not going to 13th grade." It was a great line on the part of Coates, Sr., what can I say?) who don't know what their grades and test scores would get them into even if affirmative action didn't exist. Other kids may be treated identically with poor Black kids by the schools they attend for a whole host of reasons.
Imagine a world where every American child had access to top tier education, athletics and three healthy meals a day. Instead we get bussing, affirmative action, racist math, and gay porn.
It is time everyone just realized this problem is not intended to be fixed, otherwise it would have been a long time ago.
What a great essay!
Very good essay.
Speaking from the outside, I believe racism today remains very much alive, in large part because all of us have been taught the idea of race is real. When you take a stand that race is a false idea, that it has no more intellectual validity than astrology, a new perspective can take hold, one with a jaw dropping realization of how incredibly stupid racism has been. Yes, we all knew it was vile but now we can add stupid. An example: Would you buy into the notion that Taurus people are meant for physical labor? Or that Sagittarius people are hot headed? Of course not. But for centuries people thought descendants of Africans were meant for physical labor. How stupid can you get?
60 years ago Affirmative Action was a decent start to remedy to this stupidity. Isn't it time to go after the root cause? Race is a */stupid idea/*; We are all equal in our humanity and deserve to be treated equally.
Tough standards, but infinite opportunity for those willing and wanting to learn the great arts and sciences of western and American civilization. This should include a liberal arts underpinning acquired in elementary and high school. For example knowledge of the history and biology of the human species and how we evolved from the slime, became primates in the Eden of Africa and then left and dispersed around the world. A high school degree should certify that a person understands how to read and write and speak the common language, but it should also indicate a knowledge of world history and of the founding and history of our own republic. All this so as to insure loyalty to the republic and knowledge of its constitution and the duties of a citizen. This is paramount for the conduct of public business the common good and our very survival during war. We need to keep our land and resources and military the best possible shape because of international competitive pressure which always increases. The rest of the world does not care about our decadent modern sentimentality. So american educational standards and methods must reflect the real world : many levels of certification are possible but each should. be set by a long historical tradition or an industry group or a union or a professional association. International or federal agencies can also set degree requirements for some professions. Socio-economic status or race should be used to allocate government aid among accepted applicants.