John seems totally oblivious to Bush Derangement Syndrome - the Dems bashing Republicans and demonizing them. Also done in 2008 to Sarah Palin, and Kavanagh, but even before Bush 43 it had been done against Reagan, against Nixon, against Goldwater (1980 & '84, '72, '64, even VP Nixon '60).
The Tea Party, after the Bush-Obama bailout of TBTF rich bankers, was the beginning of normal Republicans noticing that the managerial elite Dems & RINOs were not supportive of policies best for normal, working Americans. The commie-sympathizing Dems have been demonizing Reps since ... the McCarthy era & Rep blacklists & censorship. Dem "tax the rich" words have usually been "tax workers more" in practice.
Glenn is totally right - Obama was terrible for race relations. Instead of cooling them, he enflamed them and emphasized the racial, rather than behavioral, aspects of the problems. Plus neither BLM nor Obama seem to care much about the thousands of Blacks murdered by Blacks each year. Hundreds in Chicago already this year.
One big thing that changed was the realization that electing a Black Barak Obama as President doesn't seem to change criminal and immoral Black behavior. Black men commit crimes - and get "excused" because the "Devil / white folk made me do it" (whatever happened to Flip Wilson?*). Black women have sex with men who don't love them, and have babies with men they're not married to.
Uncle Sugar makes a really lousy father - and it's systemic bad Black behavior which is the main cause of Black underperformance. If 70% of Black women are sluts, or more, it's not a surprise that all Black women get suspected of being sluts upon first meeting - it's not exactly racism to assume as a first assumption that the next Black woman you meet has had multiple sex partners they've not been married to.
Black female privilege, especially to claim each and every criticism is racism, is one of the increasing problems in the USA. We all need to be able to call out bad behavior without being accused of being racists. Which, the Dem media was doing to each and every criticism of Obama - the critic is a racist. Don't like his economics - racist. Don't like his pro-abortion stance - racist. Don't like his flip flop on gay marriage - racist AND homophobe.
The Dem accusation of "racist" was very effective - especially against well-to-do White Republicans who are trying hard NOT be racist.
Is it possible to move beyond it? Yes - by focusing on the plight of deserving poor and undeserving poor, and really helping the deserving poor so as, AFTER the help, they are no longer so poor. Poverty itself needs to be more standard and absolute objective: enough food, clothes, sq feet of housing (with running water). Helping all poor people, not just Blacks.
The gov't needs to learn how to offer jobs to all willing to work, and to encourage more poor folk to work. And we need more public documentation about those unwilling to work, or like Jordan Neely, unwilling accept treatment but often behaving too aggressively against innocents. Return to asylums? Yes, but with more public scrutiny to make the experience and help more effective.
I've reduced my reading here, because of a lack of ideas on how to change Black behavior that is bad, and a near avoidance of blaming those who behave badly. We could use more Black fathers like Flip Wilson.
*Flip stepped out of spotlight to be a good father to his 5 kids! That's what more Black fathers need to do. I'm so very disappointed that John M. was unable to find compromises to stay with his wife so his kids would have married parents. My parents were also divorced (3 & 4 times) - but my 4 kids have parents who've vowed to stay together for life, and mean it. Trump's cheating on his first two wives is certainly negative, and in some ways worse than B. Clinton's more frequent cheating but not leaving (like LBJ & JFK as well).
How was Obama a great president? A funny feeling running up and down your spine? Due to the white rage I personally encountered, I began to pack a.45 ACP, even on the golf courses. Lol!
Obama is history and blacks are worst off. Obama is still laughing all the way to the bank, one billion dollars richer. Black violence and illegitimate births are continuing on steroids. How many children do you have out-of-wedlock before we advance our discussion?
1 – Rescued the country from the Great Recession, cutting the unemployment rate from 10% to 4.7% over six years
2 – Signed the Affordable Care Act which provided health insurance to over 20 million uninsured Americans
3 – Ended the war in Iraq
4 – Ordered for the capture and killing of Osama Bin Laden
5 – Passed the $787 billion America Recovery and Reinvestment Act to spur economic growth during the Great Recession
6 – Supported the LGBT community's fight for marriage equality
7 – Commuted the sentences of nearly 1200 drug offenders to reverse “unjust and outdated prison sentences"
8 – Saved the U.S. auto industry
9 – Helped put the U.S. ontrack for energy independence by 2020
10 – Began the drawdown of troops in Afghanistan
11 – Signed the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals allowing as many as 5 million people living in the U.S. illegally to avoid deportation and receive work permits
12 –Signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act to re-regulate the financial sector
13 – Dropped the veteran homeless rate by 50 percent
14 – Reversed Bush-era torture policies
15 – Began the process of normalizing relations with Cuba
16 – Increased Department of Veteran Affairs funding
17 – Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act
Black people, especially the ones in the Mississippi Delta still without adequate sewage disposal? The area that the UN declared worse than many third-world countries. The black group's wealth of 1/2 of 1% didn't change. The black-on-black violence in Chicago didn't improve. Immigration isn't in the best interests of black folks. The 1965 immigration law has been a disaster for blacks. Hordes of well-to-do/skilled Asians and unskilled/poor Hispanics entering America to displace and replace blacks? The threat of the buffer class in erasing blacks?
i have been thinking about obama and the greatest damage would be the partnership with the tech oligarchs. it was 2009 the internet was now cemented and trillion dollar corporations a reality , if he had been a true progressive he would have fought to tax and regulate these companies so their power was diminished, instead he consolidated state and corporate power. it will take decades to repair the damage
Sometimes we forget the major progress that has been made.
Years ago Lester Mattox stood in front of his ice cream shop with an ax handle to keep his establishment segregated. Today, the graduates at Harvard University segregate themselves, without a pick handle in sight.
Federal troops were necessary to integrate Central High School, so that blacks could get an education and receive a high school diploma. Today, they can graduate without learning to read or write. Years ago the KKK was terrorizing black people and their neighborhoods. Black people have monopolize this effort, and last year eliminated close to 10,000 of their own, without a white hood in sight.
Rosa Parks was arrested once for sitting in the wrong place on a bus. Today, black people can sit anywhere they want, beat the shit out of anyone they choose and not be charged for the transit fee or the criminal act.
Lena Horne had to contend with singing love songs to segregated audiences with her clothes on.
Cardi B now regales us with songs of her wet ass pu&&y and how she steals Rolex watches from tricks.
Blacks used to complain about being followed in stores and having black beauty products locked up, because of accusations of shoplifting. Today, they just load up that cart and off they go. No questions asked.
Yes my fellow citizens, this must be as good as it gets. How could it get any better?
I don't know how John can claim that it is just a sliver of people that believe in the preference and discrimination mantra on the left and at the same time judge the entire Republican party because of the Tea Party. It is not just a sliver of people. When California voted on prop 16, 43% voted to repeal prop 209 and allow hiring by race in government and other institutions. 43%! That was 2020 before the full impact of Kendi's twisted philosophy had stormed its way through public conscience. The fact is the Democrat Party has become the party of discrimination and racism (some will argue history shows it always has been). John can't own up to this fact. Why? It's a mystery.
Connecticut has openly discriminating laws and program on the books, voted in by party line by Democrat supermajority.
Michael Brown was no gentle giant. AG Holder accepted the police version of the killing of Miichael Brown and that is all well and good (the Law And Order crowd likes that part of Holder's report, the other part outlining the systemic racism of the Ferguson police department not so much). That said anyone who saw Freddie Gray loaded into a police wagon with his legs dangling like a puppet knows he was murdered by thugs in uniform. Anyone who saw Eric Garner an obese asthmatic man who could not get out of his own way being manhandled by 5 (count 'em) thugs in uniform knows likewise. Anyone who saw Loehmann jump out of the police car in point blank range of supposed active shooter knows damn well that there is no way he would have done that if he was not 100% sure Tamir Rice did not have a real gun. The list goes on. In all these cases the thugs in uniform were held blameless. And these were the ones captured on video. No doubt there are countless others not captured on video. Percentagewise the overwhelming number of police are dedicated public servants. We couldn't function as a society if that were not the case. Unfortunately like so many things in life the damage done by that minuscule number outweighs the good. Defund The Police is a foolish overreaction unless we want to be individually responsible for our own security. That being said we cannot lose sight that a criminal element will inevitably gravitate to the perception that by definition you cannot break the law because you are the law.
Conservatives operate by soundbite. Any attempt as police reform is labeled “Defund the Police”. Tim Scott was never going to agree to a deal with Cory Booker. When police abuse is shown, the Conservative response will be that it does not happen very often. In the current political climate, there will not be a bipartisan approach to addressing police abuse. Biden expressly rejected defunding the police.
Yeah they like to dismiss it as low frequency but ignore the consequences. Throw some dirt on them and move on. Unfortunately there were some on the left who at some point have embraced defunding and that was poor judgment on their part.
I think of it as the Michael Moore maneuver. Moore will make a suggestion. Democrats in power invite him to inaugurations. Behind closed doors, they say “We ain’t doing that crap” and move on. Defund was not a part of the Biden/Harris or Booker plan.
When some Conservatives suggested that Glenn interview Ice Cube I, was laughing. Cube took his plan for Black America to Biden/Harris and was offered a Zoom meeting with Kamala Harris and people with a national rep for community activism. Offended, Cube took his 13-point plan to Trump’s campaign. He never met Trump but was told his plan would be used. NFL stars Jim Brown and Ray Lewis followed. Next came Kanye and Nick Fuentes (who called Chutkan a Jamaican female dog). Cube is now driving around with Tucker Carlson.
Democrats keep the finge on the edge. Republican opened the door for the Tea Party, Proud Boys, Boogaloo Boys, Moms for Liberty, etc.
Yeah but it was more than just Michael Moore. Minneapolis City Council members publicly embraced it and then Omar, Tlaib, and Ocasio-Cortez picked up on it. I get their motivation following the George Floyd murder but they should have known better that the Law And Order crowd would capitalize on it.
Glenn and John. First, thank you. American needs you both. Second, I just love Glenn’s intellectual journey from left to right to left to right again. It should be what ever inquisitor into the human condition aspires to. It’s what I aspire to and if anyone asks, “What are you trying to do?” I’ll reply, “Be like Glenn Loury.”
I spent more time than I really should being desperately annoyed at David Samuels interviewing David Garrow so he could bring in his half-baked Obama theories in the guise of questions (I am delighted that Samuels is trying to do a newspaper for the rest of the country because a very small, specific group of New York liberals is the foil for almost everything he does at Tablet). Spouse very sensibly said "Obama had his 8 years". But I was willing to extend an olive branch there that for someone who was elected as community organizer in chief Obama dropped the ball as far as actual organizing. One VERY extraordinary person in so many ways was under pressure to be everything to everybody and could only do so much without getting individual Black and white people civically involved in a common project to make them see that they had common interests. Individuals' disappointment in Obama not doing what THEY had hoped a Black president could do may have reflected back towards their attitudes about race relations in general.
"I’m struck by how much closer we seemed to that ideal in 2007 than we do in 2023."
The operative word here is "seemed", but the reality is this: U.S. race relations--specifically, Black & White--have never been better.
That doesn't mean race relations in America are "great" or "good". It just means they have never been better. If you disagree, please tell me when race relations were better in the USA?
That is to say, based on real criteria? Intermarriage? Biraciality? Multiraciality? We are light years from any previous point in our time line. Culturally? This is as good as ever.
If you think race relations are in the toilet today, you might wanna remember how truly crappy they used to be (just to keep things in perspective).
I recently saw a guy on Twitter espousing how much better it was in the 90s. I assumed he was smoking 90s crack.
Anecdotally, I am amazed at the number of young African-Americans who honestly like country music, and needless to say, hip-hop is a global phenomenon.
We are more blended than ever. Now obviously, there are Americans out there who would rather go to their graves than blend. But people like that will always exist, and they are obviously losing.
That's why they speak and act as they do. They know their utopia is a hopeless wet dream. But in fairness, social media can be very misleading. The incentive structures there can be very pernicious societally, and we may end up paying for it one day.
Hey Charles, just throwing in my 2 cents. I think race relations were better before 2020. It used to be that my smiley friendly self was treated like friendly person, period. More often than not, I am now treated as a “White Woman” as though I’m about 10 seconds from turning into one of those viral “Karens.” It’s pretty irritating when people (even in service jobs) are just downright rude and dismissive. I know that for a long time minorities of all sorts had to deal with this flattening out of their humanity, and it was something I have always been conscious of not doing to others. To me, it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities” and think that those superficial differences tell you anything about the person inside. Maybe it’s just me though. Or maybe people are just being more comfortable being assholes in general.
But can you narrow that down to something closer to a decade?
I must say that between your comments and Redd's, I can at least understand some of our disconnect. For me, it's a little odd to say race relations are better or worse than three or four years ago. Imho, that's not enough time to draw such a conclusion about an entire country. We have 50 states, 3,000-plus counties; 35,000 towns. In truth, *all* of our experiences probably reflect some real version of the American experience.
Fwiw, throughout the 80s, 90s and 2000s, my politics have been all over the place, but my immediate orbit has almost always been Black or mostly Black. If you asked me to compare Black attitudes about White people (or "America") to back in the day, I would say without hesitation that we as a people have toned it down in a major way. The only thing that *might* give me pause is social media.
When I think about the OJ verdict, the Rodney King protests & riots, The Million Man March, the subject matter of a lot of rap music, etc., we are on a different planet.
"it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities”"
Well, I agree that our experiences are different based on when and where we lived and who we are. You know I believe that quite strongly. Being white, I was never really racialized (kinda by definition) in larger society. I was aware of my race, because I grew up in a very diverse place and heard all the spoken and unspoken rules about what I could do/like/wear etc because I was white. Gotta say I always thought it was dumb. But, I try not to make too many waves… lt’s interesting that you think (if I understand you) that black people have fewer bad feelings about whites now than in the past… my dad was born in 1939 and he was of the opinion that blacks had a deep distrust of whites which is not something I ever observed, so you are probably right. The “discourse” is very much about “white supremacy“ and speaking of racism kinda like original sin (in that it is unpurgable) and throwing out phrases like “white tears” and such. It’s hard to imagine that some people don’t take that as permission to be a jerk in a way that they maybe would not have before? I don’t know. So given all that maybe I’d say the 1990s and early 2000s seemed like it has less racial tension. I fully admit that I may have been oblivious to it… or it could have been that I lived in some of the most diverse cities in America then, and now I live in one that is very segregated. Maybe if I was still in Maryland, just outside DC, I’d feel differently.
It's deep stuff for sure. I will never claim to know it all. (Hell, I can barely wrap my head around some of it.)
I will concede this: The younger generations--I think in part due to social media--feel very free to express themselves publicly, oftentimes with a lot of (ostensible) passion, be they Black, White, right, left, whatever.
But when young people speak passionately, real or fake, there's usually a limited amount of wisdom behind their words.
So I find myself, frankly, questioning their authenticity: i.e., "How much of this outrage is kids tryin' to look edgy and cool, or 'trendy'?" "How much of it is peer pressure to play a certain role?"
Some of them want to be TikTok famous.
If you're young today, you are immersed in a culture in which seemingly everybody around you is at some point playing to the mics and the cameras. It has been this way for quite some time now, and when a thing becomes a thing, followers follow.
I have witnessed some of the most woke nonWhite people with White best friends who are *not* super-woke. The Black Lives Matter demonstrations of 2020 had more White participants than Black--a lot more. (That was nowhere near the case in '92 with Rodney King.)
How are we supposed to reconcile this?
I like John McWhorter's term: performative. That is to say, I don't think people are flat-out faking it, but some are being dramatic as heck.
My elementary school teachers used to love to say, "The emptiest wagons make the loudest noise."
Does that apply here? I don't know, but I'm guessing sometimes. =)
I can attest to the lack of perspective of the young, wisdom probably varies, but the lack of perspective is pretty ridiculous. I think that is the biggest problem with “wokeness.” Being close with many “woke” white ladies who pride themselves on being “allies” of all kinds and there is a lot of pressure to be “nice” and virtuous because we have been socialized to only have value through supporting other people. It’s hard to see so much self flagellation.
For a long time, the majority of white people just really believed racism was over. Obviously that isn’t true. I think all the “good people” are overcompensating. White guilt is a powerful force, but sadly, I don’t think it actually does anything to make racism less. In some ways, like John and Glenn point out, those beliefs reinforce some deeply racist ideas instead of rooting out racism. I’m glad that the BLM movement showed that not all white people are secretly racist. That’s good at least. But from my perspective it seems to have amped up the noticing difference and a desire amongst the privileged to spend a lot of effort obsessing over it.
I think I’ve said this before, but it is hard for me (and probably a lot of other people) to distinguish what is real from what is a performance or a grift or a narrative. I find it really frustrating. I, of course, want to be “a good one” I just have no patience for the virtue signaling and intolerance it seems to require. And especially don’t have the patience for all the “Identities” that I’m supposed to be constantly preoccupied with.
Race relations aren't getting better, especially in red states in the deep South. 6 white Mississippi police officers just pleaded guilty to charges related to assaulting and torturing 2 black guys at their residence after an anonymous caller contacted the police relating that these two guys had white women in their home. The victims were tortured and sexually assaulted for two hours. They were forced to disrobe and shower with each other. One was shot in the mouth and was fortunate enough to survive his wounds.
The Fulton County black district attorney, black sheriff, and other black officials are being threatened by deranged crackers after Trump's Indictment in Georgia. Being doxed.
Black voter suppression in the red states is on steroids after Robert's court gutted part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
The list goes on.
Are you smoking crack cocaine and spun out (distracted)) by the intense euphoria of interracial sex? The forbidden fruit craved by black guys like you.
Interracially sex-crazed Charles! You're saying that more access to interracial sex has improved race relations? Clarence Thomas marrying a white woman who worked for the racist John Birch Society is progress? I'm rolling on the floor with uncontrollable laughter. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
"Obama was a step forward. Trump...leap backward..."
I get what you are saying. I don't disagree. But I don't think you get what I am saying.
The same country that elected Obama twice (decisively) eventually elected Trump. Four years later, President Biden and VP Harris are in office. These are some pretty wild swings, and it all happened within a 12-year span.
But it's the same country, right?
Is the America that produced Obama particularly different from the one that produced Trump eight years later? Is the America that produced Trump fundamentally different from the one that produced Biden four years later? I find that hard to believe.
Our politics is different, no doubt about that. But our overall culture, I would argue, is not necessarily dictated by who is president or who is in Congress--at least not in the short run.
I don't know how *you* define race relations. But I don't know any sane or decent people who would trade the current generation for any previous ones.
While visiting Cape Town, South Africa a few years ago I visited a small restaurant for lunch. I was sitting outside eating when I encountered a black French guy with his white French girlfriend. We were on the outskirts of Cape Town when a commotion broke out among a large group of blacks. Frenchy tried to communicate his fear with me, but I didn't speak French. He and his girlfriend bolted out of there with immense fear and terror on their faces. A dark-skinned African then approached me and asked where I was from. He related that he was a refugee from Sudan. Fortunately, I knew the history of the civil war in Sudan between the Arabs and Africans. He said I looked like an Arab from Sudan or Somalia because of my color. I immediately responded that I was an American and chanted Obama... Obama... Obama! His hostile demeanor was then defused. When I think of you, I think about black Frenchy with that fear in his eyes. It was very funny and entertaining.
I'm not a Trump supporter, but he did a good job of turning this country upside down. Its democracy is being tested. Many brothers like myself are on the sidelines being amused. We're waiting for the major catalyst for black people to wake the fuck up. What would be your position if this country went into civil war or major unrest? If Jared Taylor or Richard Spencer became more mainstream? I would look forward to that stupid look on your face, like a deer freezing up in the middle of the road at night about to be hit by a fast oncoming truck. I can see you now analyzing while that truck hits you. Lol!!!!
Make no mistake there was an Obama hatefest led by Fox and Limbaugh. What it lacked was a candidate and so the racists just stayed home. After Obama was re-elected Republicans first decided they needed to stop being the Stupid Party, then decided a better strategy was to get even stupider and appeal to the missing white voter. Their prayers were answered with Trump, unintentionally I think, I don't think Trump ever wanted intended or expected to be president, I think it was a put-on publicity stunt. Unfortunately Democrats presented the "puncher" with a tailor made punching bag who thought she was royalty and didn't need to show up allowing Trump to run essentially unopposed.
You sound more in agreement with me than disagreement.
The point I have been (apparently) struggling to make is that a nation of 330mm doesn't suddenly transform as a result of an election. What Trump tapped into was already there; he didn't create anything; he only breathed life into it.
Those same elements were there when McCain ran, but McCain chose not to play to them (even though Palin was a bit of a wink and a nod). Similarly, Trump's election did not suddenly eliminate those Americans who find him disgusting. We simply lost an election, which, as you implied, could have been won.
When we think about the nation’s racial history, we often envision a linear path, one that, admittedly, begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction—toward equality. As if we’re riding a Whiggish escalator, the narrative of racial progress starts with slavery, ascends to the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, speeds past segregation and Jim Crow to the victories of the civil-rights movement, and then drops us off in 2008 for Barack Obama’s election. Many people asserted at the time that America had become a “postracial” society, or was at least getting close—maybe one more short escalator ride away. This redemptive narrative not only smooths over the past but smooths over what is yet to come: It holds out the promise of an almost predestined, naturally occurring future that will be even more just and egalitarian.
For the past several years, I, along with my Yale colleague Michael W. Kraus and our students, have been examining perceptions of racial economic inequality—its extent and persistence, decade by decade. In a 2019 study, using a dozen specific moments between 1963 and 2016, we compared perceptions of racial wealth inequality over time with actual data on racial wealth inequality. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the respondents in our study significantly overestimated the wealth of Black families relative to that of white families. In 1963, the median Black family had about 5 percent as much wealth as the median white family. Respondents said close to 50 percent. For 2016, the respondents estimated Black wealth to be 90 percent that of whites. The correct answer for that year was about 10 percent.
The mythology of racial progress is corrosive in countless ways. It provides a reason to blame the victim: If we’re converging on equality, then those left behind must not be trying. And it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system: If we’re converging on equality anyway, then why do we need laws and other measures to promote it?
"begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction"
Unerringly? No educated person believes that.
For better or worse, this author sounds very typical.
"It provides a reason to blame the victim", "it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system"
Pretty reductive stuff if you ask me.
She appears to define racial progress as something mainly or solely based on economic *equality*. She's free to define racial progress however she wishes. But: (A) I think that's a mistake. (B) Her takes obscure too many other truths, and thus, various potential solutions.
Interesting stuff. Frankly, it was way more positive than I anticipated. The central message I received was that the vast majority of African-Americans were (generally) content with their lives and potential, but increasingly anxious about the bizarre state of the White right.
The respondents also expressed genuine concern about *long-term* economic mobility. That is to say, getting ahead today is a more difficult proposition than a generation or so ago.
I get all of that, 100%. You don't have to be Black to get this.
Even during the Trump years, the FBI was consistent about who posed the biggest terrorist threat in America: White nationalists. (Needless to say, Jan6th didn't help alleviate such concerns. But that's another subject.)
As for economics: When longshot presidential candidate Andrew Yang touted Universal Basic Income, the concept resonated with all kinds of people because folks of every background recognize we are living in very different times.
I think that you and I--like a lot of people--part ways, not because we have opposite values, but because of how we interpret various data. You remind me a lot of my best friend (also Black). He and I butt heads in a very similar way and sometimes it gets pretty damn intense.
But I think I know why.
I draw clear distinctions between culture and politics, even though they are very much intertwined. I tend to view people as elements on a spectrum, especially in politics.
I see politics as competing self-interested factions constantly vying for position against each other. i.e., struggles that can exist at the highest levels (e.g., "Communism vs Capitalism", "slavery vs abolition"), all the way down to mundane s*** like where to put the next traffic lights.
Politics is shaped by those who care the most about politics, be they politicians, activists, pundits, opinion-makers, donors, what-have-you. But the vast majority of people aren't political. Most folk, ultimately, accept whatever hand they've been dealt and try to make the best of it.
But we all make up the culture.
To be clear, a lot of regular folk get manipulated and influenced by politics, and yes, s*** can go way off the rails if we allow the crazies to attain and maintain power.
But I will opt for honest and serious dialogue, every time, as long as it is an option. But if that cup ever runs empty, I can be a massive a-hole as much as anybody else =)
In this case, I was using "typical" as a bit of a pejorative (meaning, eye-roll inducing).
But yes, I am an outlier in many ways, and perfectly okay with that.
"If economics is not a measure, how are you assessing improvement?"
If I google "race relations", I get this:
"the way in which members or communities of different racial or ethnic groups feel about and behave toward each other within a particular area."
That is not necessarily about economics. Sounds more like a focus on basic respect in general, and based on that, there is no doubt that the current-day is better than previous generations. I honestly don't know how anyone could claim otherwise.
There are certainly other areas of importance, and other facts that don't at all comport with any idea of a racially harmonious society. But acknowledging that the current-day, overall, is better than back in the day, does not dismiss or ignore any of that. (Not with me anyway.)
Also, comparing Black American and White American wealth is complex. There is obviously the huge factor of who got the head start, but clearly that doesn't explain everything. There are other factors, such as, yes, culture.
One of the most interesting stats that I never hear about regarding African-Americans is how so many of our richest individuals hail from the entertainment industry: Oprah, Jordan, Jay-Z, Tyler Perry, Kanye (before he lost his damned mind), Bob Johnson (before his divorce).
We're talking billionaires, who mostly started off poor and working class, making their fortunes in the industry with the worst odds for success. That's mind-blowing if you think about it.
With every other ethnicity, the wealthiest got their bag from real estate, tech, finance, etc. But in Black America, tech billionaires like Robert Smith and David Stewart are the outliers. That suggests to me that we as a people have been too focused on a particular path, and that's cultural.
There are other meaningful factors as well. Like the African and West Indian immigrants. Their narrative is a lot closer to the overall American immigrant story and the results are similar--oftentimes better than their White counterparts.
Can't think of a creative way to end this post, so I'll just leave it there.
You guys have been doing that for 16 years? Yeah, I hear you. I didn’t want to love a lie, so I left like Lockner culture dictated I must, and I also stayed that duration of the wars out there - 15 of those 16 years. It’s good to be home. It’s good the wars are over. Drug War ended when some pothead got his head together Aug 2, 2023 in case it didn’t make the news. Woke Cultural Revolution came and went 2016-2022. It’s about time to change the topic of conversation again, isn’t it? Congrats on holding the vision, brothers! You did it!
John seems totally oblivious to Bush Derangement Syndrome - the Dems bashing Republicans and demonizing them. Also done in 2008 to Sarah Palin, and Kavanagh, but even before Bush 43 it had been done against Reagan, against Nixon, against Goldwater (1980 & '84, '72, '64, even VP Nixon '60).
The Tea Party, after the Bush-Obama bailout of TBTF rich bankers, was the beginning of normal Republicans noticing that the managerial elite Dems & RINOs were not supportive of policies best for normal, working Americans. The commie-sympathizing Dems have been demonizing Reps since ... the McCarthy era & Rep blacklists & censorship. Dem "tax the rich" words have usually been "tax workers more" in practice.
Glenn is totally right - Obama was terrible for race relations. Instead of cooling them, he enflamed them and emphasized the racial, rather than behavioral, aspects of the problems. Plus neither BLM nor Obama seem to care much about the thousands of Blacks murdered by Blacks each year. Hundreds in Chicago already this year.
One big thing that changed was the realization that electing a Black Barak Obama as President doesn't seem to change criminal and immoral Black behavior. Black men commit crimes - and get "excused" because the "Devil / white folk made me do it" (whatever happened to Flip Wilson?*). Black women have sex with men who don't love them, and have babies with men they're not married to.
Uncle Sugar makes a really lousy father - and it's systemic bad Black behavior which is the main cause of Black underperformance. If 70% of Black women are sluts, or more, it's not a surprise that all Black women get suspected of being sluts upon first meeting - it's not exactly racism to assume as a first assumption that the next Black woman you meet has had multiple sex partners they've not been married to.
Black female privilege, especially to claim each and every criticism is racism, is one of the increasing problems in the USA. We all need to be able to call out bad behavior without being accused of being racists. Which, the Dem media was doing to each and every criticism of Obama - the critic is a racist. Don't like his economics - racist. Don't like his pro-abortion stance - racist. Don't like his flip flop on gay marriage - racist AND homophobe.
The Dem accusation of "racist" was very effective - especially against well-to-do White Republicans who are trying hard NOT be racist.
Is it possible to move beyond it? Yes - by focusing on the plight of deserving poor and undeserving poor, and really helping the deserving poor so as, AFTER the help, they are no longer so poor. Poverty itself needs to be more standard and absolute objective: enough food, clothes, sq feet of housing (with running water). Helping all poor people, not just Blacks.
The gov't needs to learn how to offer jobs to all willing to work, and to encourage more poor folk to work. And we need more public documentation about those unwilling to work, or like Jordan Neely, unwilling accept treatment but often behaving too aggressively against innocents. Return to asylums? Yes, but with more public scrutiny to make the experience and help more effective.
I've reduced my reading here, because of a lack of ideas on how to change Black behavior that is bad, and a near avoidance of blaming those who behave badly. We could use more Black fathers like Flip Wilson.
https://www.closerweekly.com/posts/flip-wilsons-life-was-no-joke-behind-his-legacy-of-laughter/
*Flip stepped out of spotlight to be a good father to his 5 kids! That's what more Black fathers need to do. I'm so very disappointed that John M. was unable to find compromises to stay with his wife so his kids would have married parents. My parents were also divorced (3 & 4 times) - but my 4 kids have parents who've vowed to stay together for life, and mean it. Trump's cheating on his first two wives is certainly negative, and in some ways worse than B. Clinton's more frequent cheating but not leaving (like LBJ & JFK as well).
Regardless of Obama, whites are in charge of the system.
Did Obama fail the promise or did a significant segment of the country show us who they were?
Obama is history. I didn't vote to extend his legacy. Lol!
Obama will have a great legacy. The Republican Presidents are doing the heavy lifting to enshrine Obama as a great President.
How was Obama a great president? A funny feeling running up and down your spine? Due to the white rage I personally encountered, I began to pack a.45 ACP, even on the golf courses. Lol!
That's definitely f'ed up, but it had nothing to do with Obama's performance as president.
Obama is history and blacks are worst off. Obama is still laughing all the way to the bank, one billion dollars richer. Black violence and illegitimate births are continuing on steroids. How many children do you have out-of-wedlock before we advance our discussion?
1 – Rescued the country from the Great Recession, cutting the unemployment rate from 10% to 4.7% over six years
2 – Signed the Affordable Care Act which provided health insurance to over 20 million uninsured Americans
3 – Ended the war in Iraq
4 – Ordered for the capture and killing of Osama Bin Laden
5 – Passed the $787 billion America Recovery and Reinvestment Act to spur economic growth during the Great Recession
6 – Supported the LGBT community's fight for marriage equality
7 – Commuted the sentences of nearly 1200 drug offenders to reverse “unjust and outdated prison sentences"
8 – Saved the U.S. auto industry
9 – Helped put the U.S. ontrack for energy independence by 2020
10 – Began the drawdown of troops in Afghanistan
11 – Signed the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals allowing as many as 5 million people living in the U.S. illegally to avoid deportation and receive work permits
12 –Signed the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act to re-regulate the financial sector
13 – Dropped the veteran homeless rate by 50 percent
14 – Reversed Bush-era torture policies
15 – Began the process of normalizing relations with Cuba
16 – Increased Department of Veteran Affairs funding
17 – Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act
Black people, especially the ones in the Mississippi Delta still without adequate sewage disposal? The area that the UN declared worse than many third-world countries. The black group's wealth of 1/2 of 1% didn't change. The black-on-black violence in Chicago didn't improve. Immigration isn't in the best interests of black folks. The 1965 immigration law has been a disaster for blacks. Hordes of well-to-do/skilled Asians and unskilled/poor Hispanics entering America to displace and replace blacks? The threat of the buffer class in erasing blacks?
Glenn's take at the end of the video, is my take. Obama started out great, was corrupted by the machine, and became obsessed over his own celebrity
just read an article in the tablet about obama , it makes it look like he was always this way
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/david-garrow-interview-obama
I read that article. It confirmed my belief in how his ego has corrupted what could've been an extraordinary political career.
i have been thinking about obama and the greatest damage would be the partnership with the tech oligarchs. it was 2009 the internet was now cemented and trillion dollar corporations a reality , if he had been a true progressive he would have fought to tax and regulate these companies so their power was diminished, instead he consolidated state and corporate power. it will take decades to repair the damage
Sometimes we forget the major progress that has been made.
Years ago Lester Mattox stood in front of his ice cream shop with an ax handle to keep his establishment segregated. Today, the graduates at Harvard University segregate themselves, without a pick handle in sight.
Federal troops were necessary to integrate Central High School, so that blacks could get an education and receive a high school diploma. Today, they can graduate without learning to read or write. Years ago the KKK was terrorizing black people and their neighborhoods. Black people have monopolize this effort, and last year eliminated close to 10,000 of their own, without a white hood in sight.
Rosa Parks was arrested once for sitting in the wrong place on a bus. Today, black people can sit anywhere they want, beat the shit out of anyone they choose and not be charged for the transit fee or the criminal act.
Lena Horne had to contend with singing love songs to segregated audiences with her clothes on.
Cardi B now regales us with songs of her wet ass pu&&y and how she steals Rolex watches from tricks.
Blacks used to complain about being followed in stores and having black beauty products locked up, because of accusations of shoplifting. Today, they just load up that cart and off they go. No questions asked.
Yes my fellow citizens, this must be as good as it gets. How could it get any better?
Fuck you Nazi.
I don't know how John can claim that it is just a sliver of people that believe in the preference and discrimination mantra on the left and at the same time judge the entire Republican party because of the Tea Party. It is not just a sliver of people. When California voted on prop 16, 43% voted to repeal prop 209 and allow hiring by race in government and other institutions. 43%! That was 2020 before the full impact of Kendi's twisted philosophy had stormed its way through public conscience. The fact is the Democrat Party has become the party of discrimination and racism (some will argue history shows it always has been). John can't own up to this fact. Why? It's a mystery.
Connecticut has openly discriminating laws and program on the books, voted in by party line by Democrat supermajority.
Michael Brown was no gentle giant. AG Holder accepted the police version of the killing of Miichael Brown and that is all well and good (the Law And Order crowd likes that part of Holder's report, the other part outlining the systemic racism of the Ferguson police department not so much). That said anyone who saw Freddie Gray loaded into a police wagon with his legs dangling like a puppet knows he was murdered by thugs in uniform. Anyone who saw Eric Garner an obese asthmatic man who could not get out of his own way being manhandled by 5 (count 'em) thugs in uniform knows likewise. Anyone who saw Loehmann jump out of the police car in point blank range of supposed active shooter knows damn well that there is no way he would have done that if he was not 100% sure Tamir Rice did not have a real gun. The list goes on. In all these cases the thugs in uniform were held blameless. And these were the ones captured on video. No doubt there are countless others not captured on video. Percentagewise the overwhelming number of police are dedicated public servants. We couldn't function as a society if that were not the case. Unfortunately like so many things in life the damage done by that minuscule number outweighs the good. Defund The Police is a foolish overreaction unless we want to be individually responsible for our own security. That being said we cannot lose sight that a criminal element will inevitably gravitate to the perception that by definition you cannot break the law because you are the law.
Conservatives operate by soundbite. Any attempt as police reform is labeled “Defund the Police”. Tim Scott was never going to agree to a deal with Cory Booker. When police abuse is shown, the Conservative response will be that it does not happen very often. In the current political climate, there will not be a bipartisan approach to addressing police abuse. Biden expressly rejected defunding the police.
https://www.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_3c1cfaf5-b7ab-4712-a346-4f591e721b92
Because Conservatives will obstruct any progress, we have to repeatedly reject the Conservative “defund” slander. They are happy with the status quo.
Yeah they like to dismiss it as low frequency but ignore the consequences. Throw some dirt on them and move on. Unfortunately there were some on the left who at some point have embraced defunding and that was poor judgment on their part.
I think of it as the Michael Moore maneuver. Moore will make a suggestion. Democrats in power invite him to inaugurations. Behind closed doors, they say “We ain’t doing that crap” and move on. Defund was not a part of the Biden/Harris or Booker plan.
When some Conservatives suggested that Glenn interview Ice Cube I, was laughing. Cube took his plan for Black America to Biden/Harris and was offered a Zoom meeting with Kamala Harris and people with a national rep for community activism. Offended, Cube took his 13-point plan to Trump’s campaign. He never met Trump but was told his plan would be used. NFL stars Jim Brown and Ray Lewis followed. Next came Kanye and Nick Fuentes (who called Chutkan a Jamaican female dog). Cube is now driving around with Tucker Carlson.
Democrats keep the finge on the edge. Republican opened the door for the Tea Party, Proud Boys, Boogaloo Boys, Moms for Liberty, etc.
Yeah but it was more than just Michael Moore. Minneapolis City Council members publicly embraced it and then Omar, Tlaib, and Ocasio-Cortez picked up on it. I get their motivation following the George Floyd murder but they should have known better that the Law And Order crowd would capitalize on it.
Very true
Glenn and John. First, thank you. American needs you both. Second, I just love Glenn’s intellectual journey from left to right to left to right again. It should be what ever inquisitor into the human condition aspires to. It’s what I aspire to and if anyone asks, “What are you trying to do?” I’ll reply, “Be like Glenn Loury.”
I spent more time than I really should being desperately annoyed at David Samuels interviewing David Garrow so he could bring in his half-baked Obama theories in the guise of questions (I am delighted that Samuels is trying to do a newspaper for the rest of the country because a very small, specific group of New York liberals is the foil for almost everything he does at Tablet). Spouse very sensibly said "Obama had his 8 years". But I was willing to extend an olive branch there that for someone who was elected as community organizer in chief Obama dropped the ball as far as actual organizing. One VERY extraordinary person in so many ways was under pressure to be everything to everybody and could only do so much without getting individual Black and white people civically involved in a common project to make them see that they had common interests. Individuals' disappointment in Obama not doing what THEY had hoped a Black president could do may have reflected back towards their attitudes about race relations in general.
"I’m struck by how much closer we seemed to that ideal in 2007 than we do in 2023."
The operative word here is "seemed", but the reality is this: U.S. race relations--specifically, Black & White--have never been better.
That doesn't mean race relations in America are "great" or "good". It just means they have never been better. If you disagree, please tell me when race relations were better in the USA?
That is to say, based on real criteria? Intermarriage? Biraciality? Multiraciality? We are light years from any previous point in our time line. Culturally? This is as good as ever.
If you think race relations are in the toilet today, you might wanna remember how truly crappy they used to be (just to keep things in perspective).
I recently saw a guy on Twitter espousing how much better it was in the 90s. I assumed he was smoking 90s crack.
Anecdotally, I am amazed at the number of young African-Americans who honestly like country music, and needless to say, hip-hop is a global phenomenon.
We are more blended than ever. Now obviously, there are Americans out there who would rather go to their graves than blend. But people like that will always exist, and they are obviously losing.
That's why they speak and act as they do. They know their utopia is a hopeless wet dream. But in fairness, social media can be very misleading. The incentive structures there can be very pernicious societally, and we may end up paying for it one day.
But we're a long ways from that.
Hey Charles, just throwing in my 2 cents. I think race relations were better before 2020. It used to be that my smiley friendly self was treated like friendly person, period. More often than not, I am now treated as a “White Woman” as though I’m about 10 seconds from turning into one of those viral “Karens.” It’s pretty irritating when people (even in service jobs) are just downright rude and dismissive. I know that for a long time minorities of all sorts had to deal with this flattening out of their humanity, and it was something I have always been conscious of not doing to others. To me, it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities” and think that those superficial differences tell you anything about the person inside. Maybe it’s just me though. Or maybe people are just being more comfortable being assholes in general.
Hello Amy,
"I think race relations were better before 2020."
But can you narrow that down to something closer to a decade?
I must say that between your comments and Redd's, I can at least understand some of our disconnect. For me, it's a little odd to say race relations are better or worse than three or four years ago. Imho, that's not enough time to draw such a conclusion about an entire country. We have 50 states, 3,000-plus counties; 35,000 towns. In truth, *all* of our experiences probably reflect some real version of the American experience.
Fwiw, throughout the 80s, 90s and 2000s, my politics have been all over the place, but my immediate orbit has almost always been Black or mostly Black. If you asked me to compare Black attitudes about White people (or "America") to back in the day, I would say without hesitation that we as a people have toned it down in a major way. The only thing that *might* give me pause is social media.
When I think about the OJ verdict, the Rodney King protests & riots, The Million Man March, the subject matter of a lot of rap music, etc., we are on a different planet.
"it really feels like the wrong direction for everyone to lean so heavily into “Identities”"
Of course, I 100% agree here.
Well, I agree that our experiences are different based on when and where we lived and who we are. You know I believe that quite strongly. Being white, I was never really racialized (kinda by definition) in larger society. I was aware of my race, because I grew up in a very diverse place and heard all the spoken and unspoken rules about what I could do/like/wear etc because I was white. Gotta say I always thought it was dumb. But, I try not to make too many waves… lt’s interesting that you think (if I understand you) that black people have fewer bad feelings about whites now than in the past… my dad was born in 1939 and he was of the opinion that blacks had a deep distrust of whites which is not something I ever observed, so you are probably right. The “discourse” is very much about “white supremacy“ and speaking of racism kinda like original sin (in that it is unpurgable) and throwing out phrases like “white tears” and such. It’s hard to imagine that some people don’t take that as permission to be a jerk in a way that they maybe would not have before? I don’t know. So given all that maybe I’d say the 1990s and early 2000s seemed like it has less racial tension. I fully admit that I may have been oblivious to it… or it could have been that I lived in some of the most diverse cities in America then, and now I live in one that is very segregated. Maybe if I was still in Maryland, just outside DC, I’d feel differently.
It's deep stuff for sure. I will never claim to know it all. (Hell, I can barely wrap my head around some of it.)
I will concede this: The younger generations--I think in part due to social media--feel very free to express themselves publicly, oftentimes with a lot of (ostensible) passion, be they Black, White, right, left, whatever.
But when young people speak passionately, real or fake, there's usually a limited amount of wisdom behind their words.
So I find myself, frankly, questioning their authenticity: i.e., "How much of this outrage is kids tryin' to look edgy and cool, or 'trendy'?" "How much of it is peer pressure to play a certain role?"
Some of them want to be TikTok famous.
If you're young today, you are immersed in a culture in which seemingly everybody around you is at some point playing to the mics and the cameras. It has been this way for quite some time now, and when a thing becomes a thing, followers follow.
I have witnessed some of the most woke nonWhite people with White best friends who are *not* super-woke. The Black Lives Matter demonstrations of 2020 had more White participants than Black--a lot more. (That was nowhere near the case in '92 with Rodney King.)
How are we supposed to reconcile this?
I like John McWhorter's term: performative. That is to say, I don't think people are flat-out faking it, but some are being dramatic as heck.
My elementary school teachers used to love to say, "The emptiest wagons make the loudest noise."
Does that apply here? I don't know, but I'm guessing sometimes. =)
I can attest to the lack of perspective of the young, wisdom probably varies, but the lack of perspective is pretty ridiculous. I think that is the biggest problem with “wokeness.” Being close with many “woke” white ladies who pride themselves on being “allies” of all kinds and there is a lot of pressure to be “nice” and virtuous because we have been socialized to only have value through supporting other people. It’s hard to see so much self flagellation.
For a long time, the majority of white people just really believed racism was over. Obviously that isn’t true. I think all the “good people” are overcompensating. White guilt is a powerful force, but sadly, I don’t think it actually does anything to make racism less. In some ways, like John and Glenn point out, those beliefs reinforce some deeply racist ideas instead of rooting out racism. I’m glad that the BLM movement showed that not all white people are secretly racist. That’s good at least. But from my perspective it seems to have amped up the noticing difference and a desire amongst the privileged to spend a lot of effort obsessing over it.
I think I’ve said this before, but it is hard for me (and probably a lot of other people) to distinguish what is real from what is a performance or a grift or a narrative. I find it really frustrating. I, of course, want to be “a good one” I just have no patience for the virtue signaling and intolerance it seems to require. And especially don’t have the patience for all the “Identities” that I’m supposed to be constantly preoccupied with.
i like your view , there is a definite divide between those whose focus on the issue from any perspective and the rest of us just trying to live.
Race relations aren't getting better, especially in red states in the deep South. 6 white Mississippi police officers just pleaded guilty to charges related to assaulting and torturing 2 black guys at their residence after an anonymous caller contacted the police relating that these two guys had white women in their home. The victims were tortured and sexually assaulted for two hours. They were forced to disrobe and shower with each other. One was shot in the mouth and was fortunate enough to survive his wounds.
The Fulton County black district attorney, black sheriff, and other black officials are being threatened by deranged crackers after Trump's Indictment in Georgia. Being doxed.
Black voter suppression in the red states is on steroids after Robert's court gutted part of the 1965 Voting Rights Act.
The list goes on.
Are you smoking crack cocaine and spun out (distracted)) by the intense euphoria of interracial sex? The forbidden fruit craved by black guys like you.
Interracially sex-crazed Charles! You're saying that more access to interracial sex has improved race relations? Clarence Thomas marrying a white woman who worked for the racist John Birch Society is progress? I'm rolling on the floor with uncontrollable laughter. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Obama was a step forward. Trump, DeSatan, Mean Margie Green a quantum leap backward. 10 quantum leaps backward if Trump is reinstated.
"Obama was a step forward. Trump...leap backward..."
I get what you are saying. I don't disagree. But I don't think you get what I am saying.
The same country that elected Obama twice (decisively) eventually elected Trump. Four years later, President Biden and VP Harris are in office. These are some pretty wild swings, and it all happened within a 12-year span.
But it's the same country, right?
Is the America that produced Obama particularly different from the one that produced Trump eight years later? Is the America that produced Trump fundamentally different from the one that produced Biden four years later? I find that hard to believe.
Our politics is different, no doubt about that. But our overall culture, I would argue, is not necessarily dictated by who is president or who is in Congress--at least not in the short run.
I don't know how *you* define race relations. But I don't know any sane or decent people who would trade the current generation for any previous ones.
While visiting Cape Town, South Africa a few years ago I visited a small restaurant for lunch. I was sitting outside eating when I encountered a black French guy with his white French girlfriend. We were on the outskirts of Cape Town when a commotion broke out among a large group of blacks. Frenchy tried to communicate his fear with me, but I didn't speak French. He and his girlfriend bolted out of there with immense fear and terror on their faces. A dark-skinned African then approached me and asked where I was from. He related that he was a refugee from Sudan. Fortunately, I knew the history of the civil war in Sudan between the Arabs and Africans. He said I looked like an Arab from Sudan or Somalia because of my color. I immediately responded that I was an American and chanted Obama... Obama... Obama! His hostile demeanor was then defused. When I think of you, I think about black Frenchy with that fear in his eyes. It was very funny and entertaining.
Your lame meritorious manumission negro response: It's too complicated. Lol!!!!
I'm not a Trump supporter, but he did a good job of turning this country upside down. Its democracy is being tested. Many brothers like myself are on the sidelines being amused. We're waiting for the major catalyst for black people to wake the fuck up. What would be your position if this country went into civil war or major unrest? If Jared Taylor or Richard Spencer became more mainstream? I would look forward to that stupid look on your face, like a deer freezing up in the middle of the road at night about to be hit by a fast oncoming truck. I can see you now analyzing while that truck hits you. Lol!!!!
Make no mistake there was an Obama hatefest led by Fox and Limbaugh. What it lacked was a candidate and so the racists just stayed home. After Obama was re-elected Republicans first decided they needed to stop being the Stupid Party, then decided a better strategy was to get even stupider and appeal to the missing white voter. Their prayers were answered with Trump, unintentionally I think, I don't think Trump ever wanted intended or expected to be president, I think it was a put-on publicity stunt. Unfortunately Democrats presented the "puncher" with a tailor made punching bag who thought she was royalty and didn't need to show up allowing Trump to run essentially unopposed.
You sound more in agreement with me than disagreement.
The point I have been (apparently) struggling to make is that a nation of 330mm doesn't suddenly transform as a result of an election. What Trump tapped into was already there; he didn't create anything; he only breathed life into it.
Those same elements were there when McCain ran, but McCain chose not to play to them (even though Palin was a bit of a wink and a nod). Similarly, Trump's election did not suddenly eliminate those Americans who find him disgusting. We simply lost an election, which, as you implied, could have been won.
The myth of “racial progress” is corrosive
From the Atlantic:
When we think about the nation’s racial history, we often envision a linear path, one that, admittedly, begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction—toward equality. As if we’re riding a Whiggish escalator, the narrative of racial progress starts with slavery, ascends to the Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation, speeds past segregation and Jim Crow to the victories of the civil-rights movement, and then drops us off in 2008 for Barack Obama’s election. Many people asserted at the time that America had become a “postracial” society, or was at least getting close—maybe one more short escalator ride away. This redemptive narrative not only smooths over the past but smooths over what is yet to come: It holds out the promise of an almost predestined, naturally occurring future that will be even more just and egalitarian.
For the past several years, I, along with my Yale colleague Michael W. Kraus and our students, have been examining perceptions of racial economic inequality—its extent and persistence, decade by decade. In a 2019 study, using a dozen specific moments between 1963 and 2016, we compared perceptions of racial wealth inequality over time with actual data on racial wealth inequality. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the respondents in our study significantly overestimated the wealth of Black families relative to that of white families. In 1963, the median Black family had about 5 percent as much wealth as the median white family. Respondents said close to 50 percent. For 2016, the respondents estimated Black wealth to be 90 percent that of whites. The correct answer for that year was about 10 percent.
The mythology of racial progress is corrosive in countless ways. It provides a reason to blame the victim: If we’re converging on equality, then those left behind must not be trying. And it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system: If we’re converging on equality anyway, then why do we need laws and other measures to promote it?
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/09/the-mythology-of-racial-progress/614173/
"begins in a shameful period but moves unerringly in a single direction"
Unerringly? No educated person believes that.
For better or worse, this author sounds very typical.
"It provides a reason to blame the victim", "it diffuses moral responsibility for actively and significantly reforming the American system"
Pretty reductive stuff if you ask me.
She appears to define racial progress as something mainly or solely based on economic *equality*. She's free to define racial progress however she wishes. But: (A) I think that's a mistake. (B) Her takes obscure too many other truths, and thus, various potential solutions.
In a capitalist system, economic situation is a very important measure.
If economics is not a measure, how are you assessing improvement?
Edit to add:
If the author is typical, are you the outlier?
2nd Edit to add:
The negatives from a recent poll
About half of Black Americans say racism will get worse over the rest of their lifetimes
69% of Black Americans say it is more dangerous to be a Black teen now than when they were teens; higher among older Black adults
Most Black adults are concerned about states blocking teaching of Black history and history of racism, banning books about race
About 8 in 10 Black Americans say America's economic system is stacked against them
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/16/black-americans-racism-poll/
RE: The WaPo Poll:
Interesting stuff. Frankly, it was way more positive than I anticipated. The central message I received was that the vast majority of African-Americans were (generally) content with their lives and potential, but increasingly anxious about the bizarre state of the White right.
The respondents also expressed genuine concern about *long-term* economic mobility. That is to say, getting ahead today is a more difficult proposition than a generation or so ago.
I get all of that, 100%. You don't have to be Black to get this.
Even during the Trump years, the FBI was consistent about who posed the biggest terrorist threat in America: White nationalists. (Needless to say, Jan6th didn't help alleviate such concerns. But that's another subject.)
As for economics: When longshot presidential candidate Andrew Yang touted Universal Basic Income, the concept resonated with all kinds of people because folks of every background recognize we are living in very different times.
I think that you and I--like a lot of people--part ways, not because we have opposite values, but because of how we interpret various data. You remind me a lot of my best friend (also Black). He and I butt heads in a very similar way and sometimes it gets pretty damn intense.
But I think I know why.
I draw clear distinctions between culture and politics, even though they are very much intertwined. I tend to view people as elements on a spectrum, especially in politics.
I see politics as competing self-interested factions constantly vying for position against each other. i.e., struggles that can exist at the highest levels (e.g., "Communism vs Capitalism", "slavery vs abolition"), all the way down to mundane s*** like where to put the next traffic lights.
Politics is shaped by those who care the most about politics, be they politicians, activists, pundits, opinion-makers, donors, what-have-you. But the vast majority of people aren't political. Most folk, ultimately, accept whatever hand they've been dealt and try to make the best of it.
But we all make up the culture.
To be clear, a lot of regular folk get manipulated and influenced by politics, and yes, s*** can go way off the rails if we allow the crazies to attain and maintain power.
But I will opt for honest and serious dialogue, every time, as long as it is an option. But if that cup ever runs empty, I can be a massive a-hole as much as anybody else =)
In this case, I was using "typical" as a bit of a pejorative (meaning, eye-roll inducing).
But yes, I am an outlier in many ways, and perfectly okay with that.
"If economics is not a measure, how are you assessing improvement?"
If I google "race relations", I get this:
"the way in which members or communities of different racial or ethnic groups feel about and behave toward each other within a particular area."
That is not necessarily about economics. Sounds more like a focus on basic respect in general, and based on that, there is no doubt that the current-day is better than previous generations. I honestly don't know how anyone could claim otherwise.
There are certainly other areas of importance, and other facts that don't at all comport with any idea of a racially harmonious society. But acknowledging that the current-day, overall, is better than back in the day, does not dismiss or ignore any of that. (Not with me anyway.)
Also, comparing Black American and White American wealth is complex. There is obviously the huge factor of who got the head start, but clearly that doesn't explain everything. There are other factors, such as, yes, culture.
One of the most interesting stats that I never hear about regarding African-Americans is how so many of our richest individuals hail from the entertainment industry: Oprah, Jordan, Jay-Z, Tyler Perry, Kanye (before he lost his damned mind), Bob Johnson (before his divorce).
We're talking billionaires, who mostly started off poor and working class, making their fortunes in the industry with the worst odds for success. That's mind-blowing if you think about it.
With every other ethnicity, the wealthiest got their bag from real estate, tech, finance, etc. But in Black America, tech billionaires like Robert Smith and David Stewart are the outliers. That suggests to me that we as a people have been too focused on a particular path, and that's cultural.
There are other meaningful factors as well. Like the African and West Indian immigrants. Their narrative is a lot closer to the overall American immigrant story and the results are similar--oftentimes better than their White counterparts.
Can't think of a creative way to end this post, so I'll just leave it there.
You guys have been doing that for 16 years? Yeah, I hear you. I didn’t want to love a lie, so I left like Lockner culture dictated I must, and I also stayed that duration of the wars out there - 15 of those 16 years. It’s good to be home. It’s good the wars are over. Drug War ended when some pothead got his head together Aug 2, 2023 in case it didn’t make the news. Woke Cultural Revolution came and went 2016-2022. It’s about time to change the topic of conversation again, isn’t it? Congrats on holding the vision, brothers! You did it!