Listen now (62 min) | This week I welcome my friend the economist Robert Cherry back onto The Glenn Show. Bob has been studying race, labor, and inequality—among many other topics—for decades now. His new book, The State of the Black Family: Sixty Years of Tragedies and Failures—and New Initiatives Offering Hope
One repetitive theme I see in the book is to attack the Left almost as if the Right is nonexistent. To be fair Dr.Cherry does say that Conservatives are rigid in that they want to see changes in personal behavior before they are willing to see tax dollars go to programs to address the problem.
When it comes to the Left, Dr. Cherry has no problem naming specific individuals. Michelle Obama, who championed including more fruits and vegetables is called out because she did not vigorously support former NYC Mayor Bloomberg’s ban on sugary drinks that accounted for 10% of welfare recipient food budgets.
Bryan Stevenson is singled out because in his objection to mass incarceration, Stevenson failed to mention that Black politicians supported the 1994 crime bill. The implication is that no Black person on the Left criticized the Black politicians who supported the crime bill.
Former Black prosecutor James Forman Jr. who opposes mass incarceration names Black politicians who supported the crime bill in his 2018 book “Locking Up Our Own: Crime and Punishment in Black America”
Excerpt from the Amazon review
Forman shows us that the first substantial cohort of black mayors, judges, and police chiefs took office amid a surge in crime and drug addiction. Many prominent black officials, including Washington, D.C. mayor Marion Barry and federal prosecutor Eric Holder, feared that the gains of the civil rights movement were being undermined by lawlessness―and thus embraced tough-on-crime measures, including longer sentences and aggressive police tactics. In the face of skyrocketing murder rates and the proliferation of open-air drug markets, they believed they had no choice. But the policies they adopted would have devastating consequences for residents of poor black neighborhoods.
I can’t really say that the book has provided anything new. While a few niceties are tossed in, Dr Cherry sees the Left as his major target. I will keep trying to plod through.
Edit to add also from the Amazon review
"Locking Up Our Own is an engaging, insightful, and provocative reexamination of over-incarceration in the black community. James Forman Jr. carefully exposes the complexities of crime, criminal justice, and race. What he illuminates should not be ignored." ―Bryan Stevenson, author of Just Mercy and founder of the Equal Justice Initiative
In the 1970s I had a friend from the inner city who was very smart and so was put in a magnet school. The neighborhood bully did not like that and started harassing her for acting "white". Eventually he attacked her resulting in her getting a broken arm and a cracked rib. She was in the hospital for a week and then a week later attended her assailant's hearing. The charges against him were dismissed for time served since he was only 17. She was adamant and almost received a contempt of court charge.
The next time the bully ran into her on the threat by saying "I am not done with you yet." She was so terrified that she hid in her house and would only go if she was surrounded by a posse of her friends. I asked her how long this lasted. She said she was lucky because it only lasted two weeks because the neighborhood bully had attacked others and one of those ended up murdering him.
I have wondered whether the bully would still be alive if he had been imprisoned for a few years.
Gun violence researcher here. Focused deterrence is great, but right now there’s literally no disincentive to commit gun violence in major American cities because arrest rates are so low. You can read more about gun violence in over 1000 American cities at my (free!) Substack here.
Proclivity: what one is naturally inclined towards
If you can grant some validity to the rough equation above, it's easy to understand why the programs to improve the state of urban black folks have mostly failed, and possibly made things worse. I think what happened starting in the 1960s is that our society made it "OK" to have low expectations, which lead to poor choices, that handcuffed any (positive) proclivity that a young black man might have.
Could it be that the black men with traits of irresponsibility , violence, not providing for the family are producing more offspring than the responsible black men with the genes\traits that settle down and successfully function in society…..could trends of black women mate selection ( out of wedlock and sequential parters). Actually be causing more and more boys with negative traits that then grow up to be men who do the same things? And over generations it becomes intractable…….however unfair mate choice matters a lot. .we need to teach our girls that….however, we’ve taught them the opposite ( blank slate) we have to stop lying about everything
Cherry is correct. Incrementalism is the answer, as it is in most things. Virtually all breakthroughs result from incremental improvements to existing ideas. It's not sexy but it works.
If nothing else Cherry is not an abusive shit like your previous 2 guests Goldblatt and Finkelstein. That is a step in the right direction.
As to The State Of The Black Family I would leave it to the stakeholders to judge the validity of Cherry's research. And as usual it doesn't appear that there are any here. Which again (and again) begs the question Glenn Loury ... Are you unaware by whom the message you are sending is being received? I suspect not.
This episode left me scratching my head a bit. I teach at a community college in California, and our offerings are roughly split between transfer prep and career technical education (CTE). Prof. Cherry made it sound as though CTE either doesn’t exist at the community college level or if it does, it’s catered toward students who still plan on transferring to a four-year college. Perhaps things are done differently in New York, but I want to say that here in California virtually everything Cherry said we “needed”, such as stackable certificates, we already have. The CTE program at my school is huge, and the vast majority of students in those programs will take classes here to get training and then go directly into the workforce, NOT transfer to a four-year university. Our CTE faculty and staff use workforce data pertaining to the job market in our area to justify which programs we offer.
I enjoyed the show, liked Dr. Cherry, and am very interested in all the topics he and Dr. Loury discussed. I have found in my work that people who are highly motivated to change their behavior do so incrementally most of the time. That is how change happens in human beings with respect to managing their own lives, changing entrenched habits, and improving self-evaluations.
I am not highly familiar with scholarly work on multigenerational poverty, but what I understand is that there is considerable inertia to cultures of that kind. Creating change in habits, or more so, motivation to improve habits, is more difficult than it is in more affluent communities. Belief that change is possible, that one's own efforts will cause it, and that the outcomes of the changes will be worth the effort is not necessarily present
I think that Dr. Cherry's approach to the social problems of poor black neighborhoods makes a lot of sense. I agree that when motivation may be in short supply it could be helpful to build up a scaffold of small successes.
One question I always have about such proposals is, "How many times have approaches like Dr. Cherry's already been tried, and what was the outcome?" I think it is dysfunctional to try one program after another unless we track the results and use them to refine our approach to social needs and problems. It is also very expensive, and not worth the investment if young black men aren't doing better vocationally and financially as a result. The description of his book suggests that Dr. Cherry reviewed the history of previous social initiatives designed to assist black families, and I will look forward to reading it.
The author makes strong points. I haven’t read the book, so I cannot determine if he ever actually talked to people in the Black community or is doing data analysis a.one. He may have talked to Black Conservatives like Robert Woodson or members of his organization. One possible flaw that may exist is that he lays the blame on the Left. He feels the Left refuses to address problems originating within the Black community. The problem with this framework is that in the Black community are familiar who Leftist Afrocentric organizations that openly criticize the Black community.
These Leftist organizations note that Black children are being raised by grandparents because some Black parents are either unmarried or are dealing with personal issues. The Black Leftists note importance of marriage. They are rational enough to realize that Black women outnumber Black men in the community by 3-6 to one. Leftists stress the need for placing children on a schedule and not varying unless there is an unusual event.
The problem is that the author comes down from on high to discussion solutions that are already being applied across the nation. The effect is that this comes across as Ice Cube taking about his plan for Black America. Ice Cube could not tell you what went before and whether it worked. I look forward to reading the book. I am pessimistic that things will change. The author focuses on the failures of the Left. He slides the fact that Republicans would not fund what he proposes as an afterthought. I’m sure the book will provide aid and comfort to Conservatives. Because neither side of the aisle is serious, the problem will remain with us.
The only hope may be the Black Leftists who are actually doing the work. Robert Woodson was able to join forces with Vernon Jordan, Ron Conyers, Barbara Jordan, Ron Brown and others, the proposed programs to directly fund community groups met strong opposition and failed. Both some Black Leftists and some Black Conservatives can work together. This can only happen if the failures of both sides are recognized. Involvement of the Black community will be of utmost importance. A new organization may be required. Conservatives are not trusted.
"Sons of Rich Black Families Fare No Better Than Sons of Working-Class Whites"
The archived article I link to below is from NYTimes from 2018. To me, it looks like it seems to say that the lack of father'/other male figures in the lives of young and adolescent black males is the cause of deep disarray. Which was the essence of that 60s Daniel Patrick Moynahan report for which he was made practically persona non grata.
But do you sense that the writers are reluctant to foreground that explanation which is why it appears fairly late in the article and seems strained? It's almost as if the writers, knowing its audience, want to report the truth but are reluctant to do so because that admission hacks into the grain of so many progressive beliefs. Thoughts?
Probably the best distillation of leftist views of the black family I have ever heard. It all makes sense now! Vocational training and incrementalism seem the way forward but good luck with that in blue-controlled cities.
Quit kidding yourself, this is as good as it gets. After 60 years and 20 to 22 trillion dollars spent. This is what we have produced. This is as good as it gets.
Very interesting! I kept wondering what happened to the role of the US military in helping poor kids get educated/job ready. I know joining the military is basically signing up for indenture, but the armed forces seem pretty good at figuring out an individual’s skill set and developing lots of transferable skills, including discipline and effective communication. It seems like that would be a better path than prison, which Robert Cherry seemed to see the job training benefits of. It makes me feel so sad that as a society, prison is the best we can do for our young men. I hope that isn’t actually true.
One repetitive theme I see in the book is to attack the Left almost as if the Right is nonexistent. To be fair Dr.Cherry does say that Conservatives are rigid in that they want to see changes in personal behavior before they are willing to see tax dollars go to programs to address the problem.
When it comes to the Left, Dr. Cherry has no problem naming specific individuals. Michelle Obama, who championed including more fruits and vegetables is called out because she did not vigorously support former NYC Mayor Bloomberg’s ban on sugary drinks that accounted for 10% of welfare recipient food budgets.
Bryan Stevenson is singled out because in his objection to mass incarceration, Stevenson failed to mention that Black politicians supported the 1994 crime bill. The implication is that no Black person on the Left criticized the Black politicians who supported the crime bill.
Former Black prosecutor James Forman Jr. who opposes mass incarceration names Black politicians who supported the crime bill in his 2018 book “Locking Up Our Own: Crime and Punishment in Black America”
Excerpt from the Amazon review
Forman shows us that the first substantial cohort of black mayors, judges, and police chiefs took office amid a surge in crime and drug addiction. Many prominent black officials, including Washington, D.C. mayor Marion Barry and federal prosecutor Eric Holder, feared that the gains of the civil rights movement were being undermined by lawlessness―and thus embraced tough-on-crime measures, including longer sentences and aggressive police tactics. In the face of skyrocketing murder rates and the proliferation of open-air drug markets, they believed they had no choice. But the policies they adopted would have devastating consequences for residents of poor black neighborhoods.
I can’t really say that the book has provided anything new. While a few niceties are tossed in, Dr Cherry sees the Left as his major target. I will keep trying to plod through.
Edit to add also from the Amazon review
"Locking Up Our Own is an engaging, insightful, and provocative reexamination of over-incarceration in the black community. James Forman Jr. carefully exposes the complexities of crime, criminal justice, and race. What he illuminates should not be ignored." ―Bryan Stevenson, author of Just Mercy and founder of the Equal Justice Initiative
In the 1970s I had a friend from the inner city who was very smart and so was put in a magnet school. The neighborhood bully did not like that and started harassing her for acting "white". Eventually he attacked her resulting in her getting a broken arm and a cracked rib. She was in the hospital for a week and then a week later attended her assailant's hearing. The charges against him were dismissed for time served since he was only 17. She was adamant and almost received a contempt of court charge.
The next time the bully ran into her on the threat by saying "I am not done with you yet." She was so terrified that she hid in her house and would only go if she was surrounded by a posse of her friends. I asked her how long this lasted. She said she was lucky because it only lasted two weeks because the neighborhood bully had attacked others and one of those ended up murdering him.
I have wondered whether the bully would still be alive if he had been imprisoned for a few years.
Gun violence researcher here. Focused deterrence is great, but right now there’s literally no disincentive to commit gun violence in major American cities because arrest rates are so low. You can read more about gun violence in over 1000 American cities at my (free!) Substack here.
https://open.substack.com/pub/1000citiesproject/p/mass-shootings-in-the-us-with-and?r=d65gn&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post
(Ex + Ch + Pr) x IQ = Level of social success
Expectations: family, cultural, personal
Choices: personal, parents
Proclivity: what one is naturally inclined towards
If you can grant some validity to the rough equation above, it's easy to understand why the programs to improve the state of urban black folks have mostly failed, and possibly made things worse. I think what happened starting in the 1960s is that our society made it "OK" to have low expectations, which lead to poor choices, that handcuffed any (positive) proclivity that a young black man might have.
Could it be that the black men with traits of irresponsibility , violence, not providing for the family are producing more offspring than the responsible black men with the genes\traits that settle down and successfully function in society…..could trends of black women mate selection ( out of wedlock and sequential parters). Actually be causing more and more boys with negative traits that then grow up to be men who do the same things? And over generations it becomes intractable…….however unfair mate choice matters a lot. .we need to teach our girls that….however, we’ve taught them the opposite ( blank slate) we have to stop lying about everything
Cherry is correct. Incrementalism is the answer, as it is in most things. Virtually all breakthroughs result from incremental improvements to existing ideas. It's not sexy but it works.
Randall Kennedy gets it wrong in my view, but his NYT essay is a nuanced argument worth debating.
If nothing else Cherry is not an abusive shit like your previous 2 guests Goldblatt and Finkelstein. That is a step in the right direction.
As to The State Of The Black Family I would leave it to the stakeholders to judge the validity of Cherry's research. And as usual it doesn't appear that there are any here. Which again (and again) begs the question Glenn Loury ... Are you unaware by whom the message you are sending is being received? I suspect not.
This episode left me scratching my head a bit. I teach at a community college in California, and our offerings are roughly split between transfer prep and career technical education (CTE). Prof. Cherry made it sound as though CTE either doesn’t exist at the community college level or if it does, it’s catered toward students who still plan on transferring to a four-year college. Perhaps things are done differently in New York, but I want to say that here in California virtually everything Cherry said we “needed”, such as stackable certificates, we already have. The CTE program at my school is huge, and the vast majority of students in those programs will take classes here to get training and then go directly into the workforce, NOT transfer to a four-year university. Our CTE faculty and staff use workforce data pertaining to the job market in our area to justify which programs we offer.
I enjoyed the show, liked Dr. Cherry, and am very interested in all the topics he and Dr. Loury discussed. I have found in my work that people who are highly motivated to change their behavior do so incrementally most of the time. That is how change happens in human beings with respect to managing their own lives, changing entrenched habits, and improving self-evaluations.
I am not highly familiar with scholarly work on multigenerational poverty, but what I understand is that there is considerable inertia to cultures of that kind. Creating change in habits, or more so, motivation to improve habits, is more difficult than it is in more affluent communities. Belief that change is possible, that one's own efforts will cause it, and that the outcomes of the changes will be worth the effort is not necessarily present
I think that Dr. Cherry's approach to the social problems of poor black neighborhoods makes a lot of sense. I agree that when motivation may be in short supply it could be helpful to build up a scaffold of small successes.
One question I always have about such proposals is, "How many times have approaches like Dr. Cherry's already been tried, and what was the outcome?" I think it is dysfunctional to try one program after another unless we track the results and use them to refine our approach to social needs and problems. It is also very expensive, and not worth the investment if young black men aren't doing better vocationally and financially as a result. The description of his book suggests that Dr. Cherry reviewed the history of previous social initiatives designed to assist black families, and I will look forward to reading it.
The author makes strong points. I haven’t read the book, so I cannot determine if he ever actually talked to people in the Black community or is doing data analysis a.one. He may have talked to Black Conservatives like Robert Woodson or members of his organization. One possible flaw that may exist is that he lays the blame on the Left. He feels the Left refuses to address problems originating within the Black community. The problem with this framework is that in the Black community are familiar who Leftist Afrocentric organizations that openly criticize the Black community.
https://blackboysincrisis.com/contact-us/
Support group
https://www.gu.org/app/uploads/2020/07/AA-Toolkit-WEB-2.pdf
These Leftist organizations note that Black children are being raised by grandparents because some Black parents are either unmarried or are dealing with personal issues. The Black Leftists note importance of marriage. They are rational enough to realize that Black women outnumber Black men in the community by 3-6 to one. Leftists stress the need for placing children on a schedule and not varying unless there is an unusual event.
The problem is that the author comes down from on high to discussion solutions that are already being applied across the nation. The effect is that this comes across as Ice Cube taking about his plan for Black America. Ice Cube could not tell you what went before and whether it worked. I look forward to reading the book. I am pessimistic that things will change. The author focuses on the failures of the Left. He slides the fact that Republicans would not fund what he proposes as an afterthought. I’m sure the book will provide aid and comfort to Conservatives. Because neither side of the aisle is serious, the problem will remain with us.
The only hope may be the Black Leftists who are actually doing the work. Robert Woodson was able to join forces with Vernon Jordan, Ron Conyers, Barbara Jordan, Ron Brown and others, the proposed programs to directly fund community groups met strong opposition and failed. Both some Black Leftists and some Black Conservatives can work together. This can only happen if the failures of both sides are recognized. Involvement of the Black community will be of utmost importance. A new organization may be required. Conservatives are not trusted.
Robert Woodson failed
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/25/the-missed-opportunity-of-robert-woodson
"Sons of Rich Black Families Fare No Better Than Sons of Working-Class Whites"
The archived article I link to below is from NYTimes from 2018. To me, it looks like it seems to say that the lack of father'/other male figures in the lives of young and adolescent black males is the cause of deep disarray. Which was the essence of that 60s Daniel Patrick Moynahan report for which he was made practically persona non grata.
But do you sense that the writers are reluctant to foreground that explanation which is why it appears fairly late in the article and seems strained? It's almost as if the writers, knowing its audience, want to report the truth but are reluctant to do so because that admission hacks into the grain of so many progressive beliefs. Thoughts?
https://web.archive.org/web/20180319095004/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html
Probably the best distillation of leftist views of the black family I have ever heard. It all makes sense now! Vocational training and incrementalism seem the way forward but good luck with that in blue-controlled cities.
Quit kidding yourself, this is as good as it gets. After 60 years and 20 to 22 trillion dollars spent. This is what we have produced. This is as good as it gets.
Very interesting! I kept wondering what happened to the role of the US military in helping poor kids get educated/job ready. I know joining the military is basically signing up for indenture, but the armed forces seem pretty good at figuring out an individual’s skill set and developing lots of transferable skills, including discipline and effective communication. It seems like that would be a better path than prison, which Robert Cherry seemed to see the job training benefits of. It makes me feel so sad that as a society, prison is the best we can do for our young men. I hope that isn’t actually true.